Building a ranged combat character

[Greenfield]

I'm throwing together a quick Ranger-ish character for a guest player.

He'll be level 9, over all.

I'm thinking Scout 1/Ranger 8 with the Swift Hunter feat.

For those unfamiliar, Swift Hunter allows a Ranger/Scout combo to stack Ranger and Scout levels for purposes of calculating both Skirmish and Favored Enemy.

Any thoughts or advice? I'm not looking to min-max, just give him a few neat tricks and make him useful.

 

[Dandu]

Ranged combat character, with neat tricks, you say? Why not try out the T-300 Autonomous Bipedal Combat Platform, complete with an integrated phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range?

Or you could open your mind and build him a Soulbow.

If you do go with a Swift Hunter, I suggest taking the Greater Manyshot feat. I know some people think that giving the Scout multiple attacks with skirmish is broken, but it didn't break Rogues and I'm fairly sure they get more precision damage than the scout.

 

[Greenfield]

Soulbow is out, as we aren't using Psionics in this campaign.

Greater Manyshot on the other hand...

As a note: Manyshot states that precision damage is counted only on one of the arrows, so that part won't break the Scout. Greater Manyshot...

We'd probably house rule that you can't count the precision damage more than once against a single target.

 

[Dandu]

A scout gets Greater Manyshot at level 12 at the earliest, assuming no multiclassing occurs, since it requires Manyshot, which he can only pick up at level 9. It doesn't seem worth worrying about. A great deal of enemies in the MM have immunity to precision damage right off the bat (undead, constructs, oozes, elementals, plants, incorporeal beings), fortification enchantments to armor are available, and you can shut it down with concealment, and that's just assuming there's nothing in play that flat out shuts down archery, like Wind Wall.

Damage wise, a level 12 scout gets +3d6 skirmish, or 10.5 points on average. A fighter will be getting about that much from feats and strength, without restrictions on damage. (Offhand, taking Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery, and having a strength score of 16 gets you +7 damage)

A Scout 1/Ranger 8 gets Greater Manyshot at level 9, due to the multiclassing, but I'm really not sure the extra skirmish damage is a problem, considering that a sneak attacking rogue deals more damage with the same restrictions on his precision damage. Skirmish is theoretically easier to trigger than Sneak Attack, but there's a lot of cheap ways to force enemies to be flat-footed, become invisible, gain concealment, etc, so I'm not sure it has that great an advantage.

I'd be happy to draft a 9th level rogue if you want to run some numbers with me.

 

[Greenfield]

Generally, while a Rogue can get Sneak on every attack in a round, you can't count on that every round. You need a flat-footed opponent.

You can use concealment, but as soon as you attack you blow your cover, and need to hide again, and that's not a Free Action. One attack per round.

You can use Flank, but it's not always available, and some opponents will move out of it, forcing the Rogue to move to re-establish it. One attack per round.

Improved Feint can cause an opponent to be flat footed every round, unless they move away from you. But it uses your Move action, so... one attack per round.

In general it's comparable to Skirmish, which requires 10 feet of movement. It does more damage, but not as often.

The Skirmish limit can be bypassed with a Carpet of Flying: It needs a command word to set it in motion, but once in motion its movements are controlled by spoken directions. Speaking is an immediate action, so the carpet moves, and the Skirmisher still gets a full round attack. You can't use Mounted Combat to bypass, but the Carpet works.

Greater Manyshot aids both Rogue and Scout, but it's far easier for the Ranger/Scout combo to get it than for a Rogue. The Ranger/Scout also has a better BAB (Ranger gets full Fighter BAB, so the character is only one point below max, since Scouts start with a +0 at level 1.)

The character in question, with a Mighty bow +2, +1 magic and a die of energy damage, will do a D8 +3 +D6 energy +3 D6 Skirmish. He'll average damage in the low to mid 20s per hit. Since this all takes place at full BAB, that doubles the average to about 45 per round.

The Rogue using the same feats will still do more damage, but even less often. Cover and surprise work, but flank is off the table: You can't flank with a ranged weapon. Plus, of course, it's not even available until 12th level. (Rogue hits +6 BAB at 8th level, so Manyshot happens at 9 and Greater can happen at 12th.)

Now, is it "broken" for a 9th level character to be dealing 45 points per round? Hardly. a well build melee type can deal that much fairly easily: Two handed weapon with magic, a decent Strength and power attack. PA for 3 sets the attack rolls even (+6 at level 9) gets +6 damage per hit, on two attacks per round, and STR x 1.5, on top of whatever the weapon does. Guessing an 18 Str isn't unreasonable, so 2 D6 for a Greatsword, +1 for magic, maybe a Flame of Shock dice like we gave the Rogue and Scout for another D6, +12 for Power Attack and STR. Do that and you're going to average 23 or 24 per bhit, just like the Scout, so numbers in the mid 40s aren't unreasonable. And that's not even counting the feats like Weapon Specialization (not available to Scouts, Rogues or Rangers). There's another 2 points per hit.

Compare to spells like Scorching Ray at the same level: 28 points per round average, no Save. Fireball or Lightning Bolt? 32.5 per shot, with a Save for half. If it weren't for the AoE aspect, we'd be calling the spell caster's under powered.

 

[Dandu]

There's ways to get sneak attack on a constant bases. Just off the top of my head, a minor cloak of displacement, gives you continual concealment via a Blur effect. A ring of blinking allows you to attack as if you were invisible.

The items are expensive, but rogues have UMD and can use wands. A wand of blur is 4,500 gp, pretty cheap in the mid levels.

So even in core, it's entirely possible for your rogue to sneak attack every round against enemies who are not immune to precision damage.

 

[Greenfield]

I don't think a Cloak of Displacement will work.

Under the Rogue's Sneak Attack entry, it say they get it whenever an opponent loses their Dex modifier, or when flanking.

If the Rogue is hidden (i.e. a Hide check that the target can't beat, or something like Invisibility then the target doesn't get Dex. If the Rogue can be seen, however, the opponent can still defend.

Invisibility pops after the first strike, so one Sneak per round. Improved Invisibility is nastier, and will give them constant Sneaks, but it's not that easily available. Also, as soon as any foe with brains realizes what's happening, they start moving. They force the Rogue to chase, thus limiting the Sneak opportunities.

Now there may be notes elsewhere about Concealment and Sneak Attack, but the only mention of it in the Rogue entry is that a Rogue *CAN'T* get Sneak if the target has concealment. So that Cloak is really good proof against a Sneak. I may have to look into getting one for my character.

 

[Dandu]

My mistake on the cloak and invisibility.

How about Greater Invisibility off of a wand? And use of Grease and Ice Slick from a wand. Marbles from the A&EG force a DC 10 balance check vs flatfooted. I believe Tanglefoot bags make a target vulnurble for sneak atrack as well.

 

[Greenfield]

Hmm. 4th level spell x 7th level caster is 28. That's a 21,000 gp wand, or about 420 gp per use.

A tad on the high priced side.

A Hat of Disguise, to impersonate an ally, is 1,800 gp, infinite uses. It gets you that first round of Sneak, though no more. Two handed strike, plus a seconday, and someone is about to have a very bad day. Still, ot only works once , which is not what we're looking for.

I seem to recall a Prestige Class that took Improved Feint a step further, making it a free action. Don't recall the specifics though.

One trick I've used is an ally casting a Silent Image of an Obscuring Mist or Darkness spell. Allies know it's an illusion, so they aren't hampered by it, but to the enemy it appears as if it were a common, low level spell designed to shut down ranged attacks. From that a Rogue may be able to take as many Sneak attacks at they like, so long as the bluff holds. (Ranged attacks work better here.)

Mirror Image might help, The Images can't Flank,but they do make it impossible to know where the actual strike is coming from.

Our goal is probably one of those things the designers were trying to keep from happening.

 

[Dandu]

Hmm. 4th level spell x 7th level caster is 28. That's a 21,000 gp wand, or about 420 gp per use.

A tad on the high priced side.

Depends entirely on the level. But I'd say it's a reasonable investment at mid levels for those big boss fights, at least.

Our goal is probably one of those things the designers were trying to keep from happening.

One of the four classic classes is the Rogue, aka the guy who stabs people in the kidneys. One of the others is the wizard, aka, that guy that tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. One of the core prestige classes is the Assassin, which does have the ability to cast Greater Invisibility.

But even discounting that, we have things like Dust of Sneezing and Choking, Tanglefoot Bags, marbles if the A&EG is allowed, the Grease spell, a wand of which is cheap...