Burning Wheel

[woodelf]

I find it pretty amusing that the question about who else handles beliefs within the system was in response to the argument that somebody thought the game was very '80s style, and the systems people rattled off are all about as old as Burning Wheel.

I have no idea why anyone would think it was 80s-ish. As for possible antecedents, Ars Magica, V:tM, Pendragon, and Fading Suns all predate The Burning Wheel by a considerable margin. I'm fairly certain that there are considerably-older games that do it too, but i couldn't think of any. And i didn't think it'd be very helpful to point out that i'd started using essentially the same mechanic in my AD&D game at least as early as `89. (And i'm pretty certain it was because i saw it in a published RPG, though it might've been from something in Dragon.)

All of which is, IMHO, pretty much irrelevant. One, it's a good mechanic, regardless of whether it's novel. Two, Burning Wheel has several elements that *are* novel, or appear in novel configurations. Three, the game as a whole rocks, and it's the whole, not the parts, that matter most in an RPG--so long as none of the parts are actually detracting.

 

[Crothian]

Lukzu, does that 'we' indicate you're a designer of the game or somesuch?

He's the guy who wrote it. I e-mailed him about the thread when we ran into problems answering questions.

 

[mythusmage]

Does it, though?

You've never learned from experience? You poor bastard.

 

[lukzu]

Hi Dirigible. Yes, as Croth said, I'm the author/designer of BW. I was summoned hence in order to answer yon queries.

thanks for your interest!
-Luke

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hi Patryn,

Hi, Lukzu! First, thank you very much for coming to ENWorld to discuss your game!

First off, there are no levels in Burning Wheel. It's a minor point, but important. Every stat and skill advances individually. It's a bit more book keeping that an experience point based system, but most players find the depth it creates to be very satisfying.

Fair enough - that's how many CRPG LBD systems work (though some, like Morrowind and most MMORPGs, also add in a character-level layer). My statement that you referenced can more generally be read as "The DM gets to decide how my character advances" without changing my intent.

As for deciding, I don't know about that. All players (including the GM) have access to the advancement table. When a test is made, everyone knows what it means for advancement purposes based on the number of dice rolled vs the successes needed. So the criteria for advancing are mechanically solid and right out in the open.

Similarly, in Morrowind, it's known by the player that using a skill increases your experience in that skill, and when enough experience is gained, that skill goes up a level.

That's not entirely what I was talking about, however. Take your above statement and the one below together:

Every test is crucial and pushes the game/plot/whatever forward. So that swordsman could give a try, but he's going to fail and there is going to be trouble due to that failure -- depends on what was at risk in the scene, but it's usually pretty tense.

This seems to say that you do not generally progress in a skill at an appreciable rate unless it is an important test. Moreover, if it's an important test, the person who's the best at the skill is really the only one with a reasonable chance of success (otherwise, there wouldn't be as much dramatic tension).

Which is really what I was talking about to begin with. If I have a character who, sometime after character creation, wants to pick up an additional skill or two (I chose lock picking as my example, but it could have easily been herbalism, or magic, or axe-fighting), in a more abstract game, I can just inform the DM that, in my character's downtime, he's pursuing this skill (and perhaps the DM will place a few roleplaying encounters based around this, though it is by no means required by the system), and the next time I go up a level / gain character points / generally advance, I can improve those skills.

In a less-abstract, LBD system, my ability to improve my lock-picking skill is directly tied to the number of locks present in any given dungeon / adventure milieu and, moreover, whether or not I'm the one who gets to attempt them and whether or not I succeed at picking them!

If the DM, for whatever reason, creates a series of lockless dungeons, my skill stagnates.

Additionally, the more esoteric a particular skill is, the harder it is to advance. For example, there's a plausible limit to the number of "crucial" Herbalism-related puzzles you can stumble across in any given game session before one's sense of immersion starts getting stretched - and it becomes obvious that the tests are there so that Bob's character doesn't fall too far behind in his primary, favorite skill. In other words, it's far easier to "advance" a swordsman than a scholar.

Now, however, we come to the part that truly has me interested:

Tests are earned in conflict. The GM can introduce conflict and set the level of difficulty, but so can the players. Players can use all manner of tactics and tweaks to raise and lower the task difficulty. And they are specifically mandated to call for tests in game (see the Role of the Player in the Burning Wheel).

Can you explain a little more what this means? I'm certainly intrigued, and it sounds more than a bit like ... er, I forget the system now ... that system where, for instance, a skill rank of "Avenging my Father's Death +10" is more important than your swordsmanship skill when in a swordfight with the man who slew your father.

hope that answers some of your questions.
-Luke

It does - and thanks again for taking time out of your day to explain your game system to a random guy from the internet!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You've never learned from experience? You poor bastard.

Heh. More to the point, I've never gotten better at using Access without also getting a little better at computer programming, math, and logic at the same time.

 

[buzz]

The revised BW and Monster Burner sit on my gaming shelf awaiting thorough readings. In general, the books are gorgeous, the writing is lively, and the system seems very interesting. IN addition to pestering Luke now that he's here, I suggest surfing over to http://www.burningwheel.org and checking out the various PDFs available for download.

FWIW, it was also Ken Hite's best rpg of 2003.

 

[mythusmage]

Heh. More to the point, I've never gotten better at using Access without also getting a little better at computer programming, math, and logic at the same time.

Makes sense, since they do rely on the same basic skills. But we tend to focus a bit too tightly on subjects, and miss the connections between them. I can see improvement in Access leading to improvement in the other three, since using Access requires skill in them. You could say that Access is a derived skill requiring knowledge of three basic skills. But how to model this in an RPG system?

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Now, however, we come to the part that truly has me interested:

Can you explain a little more what this means? I'm certainly intrigued, and it sounds more than a bit like ... er, I forget the system now ... that system where, for instance, a skill rank of "Avenging my Father's Death +10" is more important than your swordsmanship skill when in a swordfight with the man who slew your father.

I think you're thinking of Riddle of Steel.

And yes, the system both allows and expects players to declare conflicts when they think they are appropriate. (Now I see where your points about not being offered the chance to learn-by-doing are coming from; I forgot this hadn't been mentioned.) Burning Wheel is set up for you to use the rules and the character's abilities to declare your interest, as a player, in the kinds of things you want the game to be about. And for people who are uncomfortable with player mechanics that feel "metagamey", BW is the system that does the best job of integrating this seamlessly into the system. This, and Let it Ride, offer a huge amount of player power and creative input.

 

[Paka]

When I start up my Midnight game again in order to finish a long campaign I had running, I will most certainly use Burning Wheel as the system. It almost feels MADE for Midnight.