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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
But...why not GURPS Munchkin?
- Thread starter rounser
- Start date
DungeonKeeperUK
First Post
I'd say all systems a viable Munchkin Territory, but it seems D&D has the reputation for it, possibly because it is played by more players, juts a matter of numbers I guess..
But I also think the Fantasy Genre seems to attract more Munchkins anyway, not entirely sure as I've never had any Minchkins to play with, but I have heard they are tasy on a slice of toast..
Plus they may just be jumping on the d20 bandwagon.... and best of luck to them too..
But I also think the Fantasy Genre seems to attract more Munchkins anyway, not entirely sure as I've never had any Minchkins to play with, but I have heard they are tasy on a slice of toast..
Plus they may just be jumping on the d20 bandwagon.... and best of luck to them too..
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rounser said:I get the feeling that Steve Jackson is making a statement about D&D with Munchkin d20 as much as pursuing a commercial goal.
For those who know the system, how "munchkin" is it possible to get in GURPS? Is this a case of someone in a glass house throwing stones?
In _Robin's Laws of Good Gaming_ (published, ironicall, by SJG), Robin Laws ranks the different gaming systems in terms of how they balance GM power vs player power. In general, the more codified and numerically-based a system, the more power lies in the players' hands. Something like FUDGE or WoD is light on formal rules and/or emphasises storytelling, and puts much of the power in the hands of the GM (who has more freedom to describe the consequences of the PCs' actions in any way she deems fit). D&D is more formal, and thus takes some of that freedom away from the GM, and puts more power in the hands of the players. GURPS is even more formal and numbers-based than D&D, and thus even more shifted towards the players' side.
What this means is that it's just as easy to make characters who break the system in GURPS as in D&D. In fact, it's possibly even easier. Surely you've heard tales about one-armed, bad-tempered, alcoholic dwarf albinos who are masters with the broadsword.
(The usual answer to this is "any GM who allows this sort of abuse is a dumb GM". That's true, but beside the point.)
The Traveler
Explorer
"Munchkin" the card game is pretty much parodying D&D. This could have been Kovalic's idea rather than Jackson's.
This is not Steve Jackson Games first forray in to the "Munchkin" realm. A few years a go, the did create a book, "The Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming." It was an over all parody and hit most genres.
Then of course the card game, that someone else mention, is also published by SJG.
So this is not realy a new thing for SJG. I would see this more of a parody of the whole d20 craze then a bashing of DnD. (He has been doing DnD bashing for decades, Hence why he created Melee, Wizard, The Fantasy Trip, and eventual GURPS)
-gustavef
Then of course the card game, that someone else mention, is also published by SJG.
So this is not realy a new thing for SJG. I would see this more of a parody of the whole d20 craze then a bashing of DnD. (He has been doing DnD bashing for decades, Hence why he created Melee, Wizard, The Fantasy Trip, and eventual GURPS)
-gustavef
reiella
Explorer
Have to agree there, it's a parody and joke based on how the gaming market has recently shifted and had a bit of focus on d20 (might just be my perception since now that, Rifts, anime-based rpgs (Dominion Tank Police, Sailor Moon, DBZ, etc) being all that is in stock in actual games at my local gaming shop recently (All White Wolf stock 75% off... Does not include Sword and Sorcery labels).
Oh well, should be a funny skim
.
Oh well, should be a funny skim
.
In my opinion, it is much easier to recognize an Munchkin GURPS character than a Munchkin D20 character. The reason is pretty simple, the ways that you munchkinize a GURPS character are so different than the way that you build a balanced character that it is quite obvious what is being done.
Since it is easier to detect, there is a lower likelyhood that a single munchkin character will be allowed into a group that disapproves of such things.
In D20, everyone takes feats. Many will multiclass two and (most rarely) three classes. Just quickly looking over the character sheet, it may not be obvious that combining the Rhino Armor with a Barbarian/Cleric of Kord results in the potential for a huge amount of damage on a charge. Reading the Sultan's of Smack thread on these boards would make it more likely you would catch these things, but even then it is fairly easy to miss.
In D20, you are taking normal rules that are usually fine, and combining them in such a way as to optimize one particular facet of the character. There is no one thing you can look for to detect it, you have to look at several things in combination. In my example, it was the multiple strength pumps (Barbarian Rage, Strength Domain power) with a charge and an item that increases damage on a charge that resulted in the optimized character.
In GURPS, most of the ways to munchkinize are much more obvious than that. Look for the one or two things that are way higher than normal and you've probably found it.
One of the classical ways to munchkinize is buying up an attribute to insane levels (17 is really getting up there) and then becoming a 'half-point wonder'. Never spend more than a half point on most skills, depending on your fantastic attribute for everything. This is pretty easy to spot, the combination of very high attribute with an extremely broad skill base.
Another way to munchkinize is to buy the Eidetic Memory advantage. This advantage probably has more people house ruling or forbidding it than the Harm spell does in D20. If GURPS ever does go into another edition, I believe this advantage would be heavily modified. After seeing one character abuse this advantage, most GURPS GMs know to look out for it.
Another way to munchkinize is to buy a single power up to extremely high levels. Become so focused on just that one (or maybe two) things that it becomes a 'juggernaut' ability. In a setting where the ability comes into play, almost nothing can stop you. Where it doesn't come into play, you are useless.
All of these GURPS things are pretty obvious when you look at the character sheet. Look for the high attributes, high skills, or single power that is taken to insane levels. If one of your players has a skill 25 when everyone else is down below skill 15, you're probably looking at a munchkin character.
Note: If every character is expected to have skills of 20-23, a skill of 25 is not unreasonable. It is only when there is a large gap between what the GM thinks the skill values should be and what the character has that there is a problem.
Since it is easier to detect, there is a lower likelyhood that a single munchkin character will be allowed into a group that disapproves of such things.
In D20, everyone takes feats. Many will multiclass two and (most rarely) three classes. Just quickly looking over the character sheet, it may not be obvious that combining the Rhino Armor with a Barbarian/Cleric of Kord results in the potential for a huge amount of damage on a charge. Reading the Sultan's of Smack thread on these boards would make it more likely you would catch these things, but even then it is fairly easy to miss.
In D20, you are taking normal rules that are usually fine, and combining them in such a way as to optimize one particular facet of the character. There is no one thing you can look for to detect it, you have to look at several things in combination. In my example, it was the multiple strength pumps (Barbarian Rage, Strength Domain power) with a charge and an item that increases damage on a charge that resulted in the optimized character.
In GURPS, most of the ways to munchkinize are much more obvious than that. Look for the one or two things that are way higher than normal and you've probably found it.
One of the classical ways to munchkinize is buying up an attribute to insane levels (17 is really getting up there) and then becoming a 'half-point wonder'. Never spend more than a half point on most skills, depending on your fantastic attribute for everything. This is pretty easy to spot, the combination of very high attribute with an extremely broad skill base.
Another way to munchkinize is to buy the Eidetic Memory advantage. This advantage probably has more people house ruling or forbidding it than the Harm spell does in D20. If GURPS ever does go into another edition, I believe this advantage would be heavily modified. After seeing one character abuse this advantage, most GURPS GMs know to look out for it.
Another way to munchkinize is to buy a single power up to extremely high levels. Become so focused on just that one (or maybe two) things that it becomes a 'juggernaut' ability. In a setting where the ability comes into play, almost nothing can stop you. Where it doesn't come into play, you are useless.
All of these GURPS things are pretty obvious when you look at the character sheet. Look for the high attributes, high skills, or single power that is taken to insane levels. If one of your players has a skill 25 when everyone else is down below skill 15, you're probably looking at a munchkin character.
Note: If every character is expected to have skills of 20-23, a skill of 25 is not unreasonable. It is only when there is a large gap between what the GM thinks the skill values should be and what the character has that there is a problem.
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