Butchering Middle Earth

[Endur]

Old ICE materials

The old ICE Middle Earth materials have everything you are looking for. A map of the continent, the Blue Wizards, the countries they migrated to, etc.

Tom

 

[WizarDru]

Kinetic magic comes from the Valar and the Maiar, period. The only magical capabilities of elves are non-kinetic. The high-magic structure of D&D is completely incompatible with this.

What is Kinetic magic, exactly? You mean magics that can effect the physical world, as opposed to glamours and the like?


I don't agree that running a game in Tolkein's world would somehow sully the image or tarnish the work, but YMMV. I would more see it as people wishing to create their own tales similar to the Hobbit, Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales. Middle Earth was rife with stories of heroic adventure and interesting, often only hinted at, history. The second, third and fourth ages all offer interesting opportunities for such play.

If I were to venture such a game, I wouldn't allow PCs to be anything but humans, dwarves or hobbits, of course...but that's another story entirely.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think one reader's interpretations are as valid as any other's. I don't presume that my interpretation is the only correct one. Trying to assert that someone else's interpretation of a work of fiction is incorrect seems foolish to me.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

What is Kinetic magic, exactly? You mean magics that can effect the physical world, as opposed to glamours and the like?

Even if that is what was meant, I would wager that any number of passages from Tolkien can be cited to refute such a claim.

EDIT: And a really obvious example of why such an assertion is wrong just occurred to me - Elrond's control of the river Bruinen. Even if one asserts that it was more the doing of Elrond's Ring than Elrond himself, that still doesn't bolster such a claim. The Elven Rings were made by an elf, and were untouched by Sauron. So either way, elves can, indeed, use "kinetic" magic, if that is indeed what is meant by that term.

 

[jdavis]

If Tolken climbs out of his grave and shows up at your game to tell you to stop it, let us know, other than that to heck with it, it's just a setting, make Elephants into steam buggys and hobbits into ManGods. I wouldn't give one wit to whether you were accurate or not because when you get down to it who cares, as long as your having fun. The game is about enjoyment not being theoretically correct. (I want a dime for every steam powered elephant in your game though, intellectual property).

You want the ICE Atlas of Middle Earth from their old game, I had it at one time. I am looking at a full map of all of Middle Earth as we speak unfortuantly it is only marked with general areas of certain monsters. I'd recommend all the old Rolemaster Middle Earth supplements for their information but if you can't track down any just make it up, once again I don't think Tolken will mind if you fiddle with his maps.

 

[kengar]

Totally apart from the issue of whether to play a ME game and whether to use d20, for plot ideas, I highly recommend checking out Decipher's LOTR RPG messageboard at their website. A lot of ideas about the Blue Sorcerers of the East, the 4th Age, etc. have been bandied about over there. Fair warning: the group on that board tend to be a bit more interested in staying "true to canon" when it comes to JRRT's books.

As far as d20 v. the LOTR RPG, the CODA system is very similar to d20 in several respects, though there are a few things that change the feel of the mechanics. There are no Levels/BAB/etc. so personal skill counts for more and characters are more customized within their classes ("Orders"). Experience is based on progressing within the story, not combat, so the tone of the game is slightly different. i.e. A needless fight earns you little to no XP. Though it is possible to run a 3e game that way, too.

The magic system does a great job at capturing the feel of ME magic and is VERY different from 3e's "Vancian" system. That said, however, adapting the mechanics of the LOTR game's magic to d20 wouldn't be terribly difficult. Though the spellcaster classes would require some tweaking.

Someone on this board (I think it was Colonel H) did a great review of Decipher's game. If I can find the thread I'll edit this message to include a link.

EDIT: I was right, it was the Colonel. Here is the review link.

 

[yell0w_lantern]

The Atlas of Middle Earth? Okay sounds cool; I stink at doing my own maps, they always look uber-contrived. Other than in the area of geography, I'm perfectly willing to play fast and loose with the background. I'm basically making a caricature - some stuff is being embellished for effect, other things are ignored entirely and some things are faithful to the books (again, like that movie that came out last year).

For instance, I have pulled racial stats from Kalamar, Everquest Handbook and the PHB. I'm using a ton of classes from various sources (PHB, AEG's Mercenaries, AEG's Magic, Oriental Adventures, Rokugan, Sovereign Stone Campaign Guide, Wheel of Time, and a few homegrown ones/conversions). As someone previously mentioned, I have used Bugbears for Uruk Hai although I'm putting in regular D&D orcs for standard orcs and for crappy orcs (the kind who like to sing songs, steal ponies, and can be confused with poorly disguised hobbits) I'm using goblins. I'm using EQ trolls for 1/2 trolls. And by the way, there's a really nice set of flaws/advantages in Swashbuckling Adventures along with some NICE feats for ME (Unarmed Defense).

p.s. thanks for the info, guys

 

[fusangite]

Even if that is what was meant, I would wager that any number of passages from Tolkien can be cited to refute such a claim.

EDIT: And a really obvious example of why such an assertion is wrong just occurred to me - Elrond's control of the river Bruinen. Even if one asserts that it was more the doing of Elrond's Ring than Elrond himself, that still doesn't bolster such a claim. The Elven Rings were made by an elf, and were untouched by Sauron. So either way, elves can, indeed, use "kinetic" magic, if that is indeed what is meant by that term.

Actually, this example makes my point. The three elven rings do in fact lose all their power at the end of the books because, although never touched by Sauron, they too exist by the power of the One.

As for using MERP for LOTR lore, that's sort of like using the Dr. Who RPG for a synopsis of the show.

God knows why I'm still posting to this thread; my posts won't make anyone happy.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, this example makes my point. The three elven rings do in fact lose all their power at the end of the books because, although never touched by Sauron, they too exist by the power of the One.

As for using MERP for LOTR lore, that's sort of like using the Dr. Who RPG for a synopsis of the show.

God knows why I'm still posting to this thread; my posts won't make anyone happy.

Actually, that is a matter of subjective interpretation. The One was created after the Three. The Three had powers of their own before the One. Apparently the Elves could take what Sauron taught and use it. The implication is that, had the One not been created, the Three would have remained powerful. Sauron knew the secrets of the creation of the Rings, having taught them, so he was able to bind the power of the Three to the One after the fact.

Your opinion is valid for your interpretation of Tolkien, but is not valid for everyone else. Why not jump into the spirit of the discussion instead of trying to prove everyone else wrong? You seem to have a love for Tolkien and a knowledge of his work. Each reader makes a book his or her own by the act of reading. Unless you can cite specific passages written by Tolkien that refute anything that has been discussed here or at the linked-to site, then it's all subjective opinion. And note, at the site I link to, specific citations from Tolkien are used extensively. Much of it is subjective interpretation of the material, but one person's interpretations are as valid as another's. Calling it "obtuse" or saying it is wilfull misinterpretation comes off as trying to sound like the final authority on Tolkien - and none of us are.

 

[fusangite]

Unless you can cite specific passages written by Tolkien that refute anything that has been discussed here or at the linked-to site, then it's all subjective opinion.

"...said Elrond... 'But all that has been wrought by the three will turn to their undoing and their hearts and minds will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the one. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.'

"'But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?' asked Gloin.

"'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. 'Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotton. That is my belief.'"

- The Council of Elrond, Fellowship of the Ring

"Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood..."

(Galadriel to Frodo) "'Only thrice have you set the ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed.... Yet even so, as Ring-bearer... your sight has grown keener. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?'

"'Did you see my ring?' she asked again turning to Sam....

"'No, Lady,' he answered. 'To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about..."

- The Mirror of Galadriel, Fellowship of the Ring

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three. But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in glimmering white... On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone...

"Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times.

"...Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire. Then those who were to go were glad, for they knew that Galdalf would also take ship with them.

-The Grey Havens, Return of the King

"But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey."

-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Simlarillion

Ok. Just in case there is any question in anyone's mind as to whether the power of all rings was contingent upon Sauron, there's the evidence. So, as I previously mentioned, the power of the Maia is the sole source of kinetic magic. Even when a Maia is incarnated as a human being, they have no kinetic magic (as is the case with the Istari).

Calling it "obtuse" or saying it is wilfull misinterpretation comes off as trying to sound like the final authority on Tolkien - and none of us are.

I'm by no means a great authority on Tolkien. But if someone said, "the Eucharist is just a metaphor in Catholic theology." I would still be able to say, "No. Catholicism differs from all other Western Christianity because it believes in the real presence." That wouldn't make me a great authority on Catholicism, it would just make me someone who states the obvious.