Butchering Middle Earth

[ColonelHardisson]

"...said Elrond... 'But all that has been wrought by the three will turn to their undoing and their hearts and minds will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the one. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.'

"'But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?' asked Gloin.

"'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. 'Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotton. That is my belief.'"

- The Council of Elrond, Fellowship of the Ring

"Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood..."

(Galadriel to Frodo) "'Only thrice have you set the ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed.... Yet even so, as Ring-bearer... your sight has grown keener. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?'

"'Did you see my ring?' she asked again turning to Sam....

"'No, Lady,' he answered. 'To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about..."

- The Mirror of Galadriel, Fellowship of the Ring

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three. But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in glimmering white... On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone...

"Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times.

"...Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire. Then those who were to go were glad, for they knew that Galdalf would also take ship with them.

-The Grey Havens, Return of the King

"But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey."

-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Simlarillion

Ok. Just in case there is any question in anyone's mind as to whether the power of all rings was contingent upon Sauron, there's the evidence. So, as I previously mentioned, the power of the Maia is the sole source of kinetic magic. Even when a Maia is incarnated as a human being, they have no kinetic magic (as is the case with the Istari).



I'm by no means a great authority on Tolkien. But if someone said, "the Eucharist is just a metaphor in Catholic theology." I would still be able to say, "No. Catholicism differs from all other Western Christianity because it believes in the real presence." That wouldn't make me a great authority on Catholicism, it would just make me someone who states the obvious. [/QUOTE]

There is no question that the Rings were linked. That wasn't the question. Your quotations, while of interest, don't really provide definitive proof that Elves (or anyone else) could not use more obviously powerful forms of magic. You did not address the fact that I pointed out that they were linked after the Three were already made. Were the Three dependant on Sauron before the One was made? That's the question. Tolkien showed that even Elrond didn't know - if the One had never existed, then the Three would have remained as they were, it is strongly implied. They existed just fine until the One was placed on Sauron's finger.

Another example is Feanor's creation of the Silmarils. He clearly was able to use the type of magic we're discussing here in order to bind it into the form of the Silmarils.

I don't understand what you mean by kinetic magic, and apparently others don't either. You need to clearly define the term. I could point out that Gandalf's battle with the Balrog shows some pretty spectacular fireworks:

The Two Towers: The White Rider -

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.'"

Emphasis mine.

Your point about Catholicism is confusing. You need to make the point more clearly.

Also, let's leave off with the hostility. You began posting in an aggressive manner, and I responded in kind. I apologize for that. I would rather discuss than argue. If you wish to continue this in a friendly manner, I am extending an olive branch.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Another point I could make about the wielding of magic by the Istari-

"Yet in the diminished world of Middle-earth in the Third Age they were forbidden to come forth in power as Maiar. They were limited to the form of Men and the powers found within the mortal World"- Istari, Tolkien: The Illustrated Enclyclopedia

Although that wasn't taken directly from Tolkien's own writings, I consider the Encyclopedia, which was based completely off of his writings with no embellishments, to be authoritative. What this statement shows us is that there is some form of magic wielded by men and elves that the Istari have learned and wield in middle-earth (which is clear from the books and movies), since they are forbidden to use their Maiar might in the mortal realm.

Also:
"It is said that the Nazgul were once powerful kings and sorcerers among Men and they were each given a Ring of Power by Sauron"- Nazgul, Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia

Right here- there is a form of "sorcery" wielded by mortals. In this case, it is the corrupt Sorcery of Morgoth, not the Enchantment of the elves and the Istari- but it is magic, nonetheless. Tolkien once wrote a fantastic essay on the difference between Enchantment and Sorcery and their presence in middle-earth... I should see if I can find it... (I believe that it's in the new volume of the Histories of Middle-Earth, "Morgoth's Ring", but I'm not sure)... but I know that it provides plenty of food for thought on how magic is used by humans and elves in Middle Earth- not just maiar.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Here is direct quote from Tolkien about the Istari:

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, section II: The Istari:"Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Emphasis mine. The implication being that the Istari, although burdened by the forms of Men, could have openly displayed such power if they had been allowed to.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The point about some of the Nazgul being sorcerers as living men is a good one Tyler. The Mouth of Sauron was another such personage.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Here's a fantastic discussion of magic in Tolkien's Middle Earth based upon his books, essays, and letters-

http://mevault.ign.com/features/editorials/understandingmagic.shtml

This should shed some more light on the discussion.

 

[Numion]

Re: Old ICE materials

The old ICE Middle Earth materials have everything you are looking for. A map of the continent, the Blue Wizards, the countries they migrated to, etc.

It would be nice to try to play LotR with the ICE Merp or RM rules. I doubt the hobbits would survive a single encounter with the Ringwraiths as presented in the Gorgoroth sourcebook

ICE versions of the buggers are capable of some pretty spectacular and flashy magics..

 

[WizarDru]

As for using MERP for LOTR lore, that's sort of like using the Dr. Who RPG for a synopsis of the show.

Heh. If it's the same Dr. Who RPG I recall, then that's a poor choice, as the RPG was probably one of the best sources for Dr. Who lore at the time it was published. Mind you, I wouldn't try to draw parallels between a show that ran thirty years with multiple total changeovers of actors, directors, producers and writers with a series of stores that took decades to actually write, but YMMV.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Here's a fantastic discussion of magic in Tolkien's Middle Earth based upon his books, essays, and letters-

http://mevault.ign.com/features/editorials/understandingmagic.shtml

This should shed some more light on the discussion.

WOW!!! That is one fantastic essay. The guy proves that not only Elves, but Dwarves, Men, and Hobbits(!) can use magic, using Tolkien's own words to do so. Even I'm surprised by how completely the article makes the case.

 

[fusangite]

A few posters have gleefully pointed out that magic could be used by creatures other than the Maiar and Valar. I've never disputed any such claim. My statement was the kinetic magic could only be used by a Vala or Maia.

It is abundantly clear throughout the text of Tolkien that the Noldor were capable of making what one could roughly call "magic items." I would even concede, despite the paucity of direct text, that the Dwarves of Durin's folk could make such items as well.

However, such magic is not kinetic in any way. The spells take days or weeks to weave and the items have no kinetic properties.

My point is not that there is no magic wielded by Humans, Dwarves and Elves but that kinetic magic is completely outside of anything a character could have access to. I therefore suggest that if one is to play in ME, one should use a game system designed for it not one running in opposition to it.

There is no point in telling me the Istari are Maia and can therefore use kinetic magic. I agree with you. However, their physical forms constrain this -- whether by virtue of Arda physics or the word of Manwe (we can't be sure whether these are one in the same). Galdalf, aided by Narya, however, can use such magic inspite of this constraint.

Kinetic magic -- magic that moves things by force -- evocation, transmutation, conjuration spells.

Most enchantment, divination and illusion spells are not kinetic magic.

 

[jdavis]

Ok after a little digging I found I gave some wrong information, it was not the Atlas of Middle Earth it was called the Middle-Earth Campaign Guide, Or there was the Middle-Earth Role Playing Poster Maps. Both were background sourcebooks for the second edition of MERP. The first edition books were the Middle-Earth Campaign and adventure guidebook, volumes I & II.

I found a small copy of the map in one of my old MERP books, now if I can only get my scanner working.........

I won't touch the magic arguement except to say that I don't think the loss of the rings was why the Elves left, the power of the elves had been fading for two ages, the time of the elves was over, it was now the time for men. It didn't have a lot to do with what kind of magic they used, it had to do with the fact that it was time for them to go. Without the rings they could no longer make Middle Earth look as they wished it to look, they just did not have the numbers or the power. Galadriel would of been over 10,000 years old, Middle-Earth was changed, it was now the time of men.