Butchering Middle Earth

[ColonelHardisson]

A few posters have gleefully pointed out that magic could be used by creatures other than the Maiar and Valar. I've never disputed any such claim. My statement was the kinetic magic could only be used by a Vala or Maia.

It is abundantly clear throughout the text of Tolkien that the Noldor were capable of making what one could roughly call "magic items." I would even concede, despite the paucity of direct text, that the Dwarves of Durin's folk could make such items as well.

However, such magic is not kinetic in any way. The spells take days or weeks to weave and the items have no kinetic properties.

My point is not that there is no magic wielded by Humans, Dwarves and Elves but that kinetic magic is completely outside of anything a character could have access to. I therefore suggest that if one is to play in ME, one should use a game system designed for it not one running in opposition to it.

There is no point in telling me the Istari are Maia and can therefore use kinetic magic. I agree with you. However, their physical forms constrain this -- whether by virtue of Arda physics or the word of Manwe (we can't be sure whether these are one in the same). Galdalf, aided by Narya, however, can use such magic inspite of this constraint.

Kinetic magic -- magic that moves things by force -- evocation, transmutation, conjuration spells.

Most enchantment, divination and illusion spells are not kinetic magic.

You know, if you had simply defined your terms and not come across so condescendingly hostile (and your first few posts certainly came across that way, no disrespect intended), this would have been a pleasant discussion. As it is, your thoughts are worthwhile. I disagree with your assertions about what types of magic could be used, but I certainly see the point you were trying to make. What adds up one way for me adds up another way for you. I apologize to you if I misinterpreted your attitude.
I also think you may have misinterpreted mine - I was gleeful for the link Tyler gave, because it so clearly and cogently laid out the argument in favor of Men and the other races of Tolkien's work using magic, in one place. It is exactly the type of article I've been looking for over the past couple of years, in regards to the Middle Earth d20 conversion project that has gone on here on these boards, and which has resulted in the site linked to in my sig.

I wish to again extend an olive branch to you.

 

[fusangite]

Thanks, Colonel, as one Tolkien fan to another, branch gratefully accepted.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

fusangite, if you'll bear with me, I also want to explain something else. I've been shepherding along the d20 Middle Earth fan conversion project for going on two years now. I'm rather protective of it. Not because it's got my stuff posted there - that's not important to me. What is important is that so many other people entrusted their material to the project. So, in all honesty, I admit that I get testy when it seems that it's being dismissed out of hand. So, pardon my heat in regards to it. Seriously; I'm not being sarcastic or disrespectful. I genuinely don't want a flame war. If you wish to draw up some guidelines or write an essay about how you feel magic should work in a Middle Earth game, please do; we'd be happy to post it.

When it comes to magic in Middle Earth, I'd also like to recommend, again, the magic section of Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG. The essays in that book are very appealingly written. If you want to see my review of it, someone linked to it above.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Thanks, Colonel, as one Tolkien fan to another, branch gratefully accepted.

Ah! Very good indeed! Now, hop on over to the Conversions forum and join in the discussion about what we can do to improve things!

 

[fusangite]

Colonel, I appreciate your restraint and politeness but as I said in my previous posts, I really should not have posted here at all.

My real problem is that to me gaming in Middle Earth is an impoverished narrative experience. Just as the battle at the end of the second age was a pale shadow of the War of the Wrath and just as the final battle at the end of the third age was a pale shadow of that which ended the second, I just don't feel comfortable telling stories that are circumscribed by Tolkien's Celtic twilight and diminishment paradigm. So, every game will be a side show to a much greater story in the first through third age or a story in the fourth age that can by definition ever equal a story of the third.

That's why the whole project is so upsetting to me. I wept when Middle Earth diminished and the Noldor left, and I'd just feel sadness gaming in a world they've wholly abandoned.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Well, it's unfortunate you feel that way. I've read the trilogy well over a dozen times since I was, let's see, 10 or 11. The loss of the Noldor is a sad thing, but what I found intriguing was that the Silvan Elves remained in large numbers. I also wondered about the early Fourth Age and Aragorn's battles throughout Middle Earth, subduing the foes of Gondor. I've seen others voice the same opinion as yours, though - that the main sources of conflict are over after Sauron's defeat. While this is true, I find that the landscape of Tolkien's world is a vast canvas, upon which is painted many mysterious things. Mordor would remain a haunted place for centuries, poisoned and cursed by millennia of evil. The East and South are enigmatic, long held under the sway of the Dark Lord. The Withered Heath, the Grey Mountains, Mount Gundabad, the Misty Mountains - all still harbor the minions of Sauron. I understand that many wish to have a bad guy as huge and evil as Sauron to fight, but having been a D&D player almost as long as a Tolkien fan, I'm more than satisfied to fight the small fights, root out the minor evil. And some may not be so minor; as Gandalf says about the depths below Moria, there are creatures of evil there unknown even to Sauron, and that are older than he. So, the potential excites me as a gamer. In a way, this project has helped me explore Tolkien's work more closely than ever before, which is a good thing. But, I know it's not for everyone.

 

[danzig138]

Colonel, I appreciate your restraint and politeness but as I said in my previous posts, I really should not have posted here at all.

So, don't get offended, but are you by any chance an English major?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

If I were running a campaign set in Tolkien's Middle Earth, I would set it earlier in the timeline, and assume the whole timeline after that point is altered irrevocably.

Here is one idea for your players: have their characters transported from another world into Tolkien's, during the First Age and the Wars of Beleriand.
They find themselves suddenly amidst a large number of spectacular elven nations, and even more spectacular elves. Great and noble men, the Edain, work with these elves, while other lesser men are wondering who they should support. Dwarves in their mountains are neutral, unless they feel their underground cities are in danger. The Ents, are on nobody's side, but certainly they hate the orcs.
Not just any orcs, these orcs of Beleriand. Not the weak, puny orcs of D&D. These are the orcs of Morgoth, and into them he has poured his Divine Power, giving them stature, strength, and endurance beyond mortal kin, and filling them with hatred and a lust to destroy, to burn, and to kill.
Did I mention he also gave them neat armor and weapons, magical armor and weapons?

The party, seeing the Fourth Battle erupt and most of the elves and men going off to fight the orcs, and the balrogs, and the fell beasts (and whatever else Morgoth might have, which is everything in the Monster Manuals), might decide to help them against the Great Enemy.
Too late do they learn that these elves are rebels, and all who aid them are caught in their Doom, which is the Curse of Mandos.
What will the party do? Try to return home? Try to go to Valinor and talk the Valar out of their anger? Laugh in the face of the Curse and go on helping the elves? Run to the far ends of Middle Earth? Try to steal the Simarils from Morgoth's Crown? The choice is up to them!

Admittedly, any attempt to superimpose the D&D system (especially the D&D system of magic) onto Tolkien's world, will be like cramming a piece of square plastic through a circular hole. With about the same messy results, whatever is tried.

Some of Tolkien's themes might not do so well in a D&D scenario.
Elves have about a + 10 to all stats (and that's only the beginning.) Everyone will want to play the Favored Race of Arda.
Elves eventually leave Middle Earth, which creates a rather dull scenario, if you like elves. Which means you must annul Tolkien's theme, if you like elves and want them to stay (the Valar did not ask them all to come to Valinor, during the First Age, then!)
Resurrection ... hmmm, wasn't there a rule about the Gift of Death being irrevocable? If the Valar cannot give life back, how could a mere mortal cleric do so?
For that matter, the Valar (and the One) do not answer prayers in the D&D sense, and do not fill the minds of clerics with spells. Or, perhaps they do, after all ... if you allow that they do, but if you do Tolkien's conceptions are all but destroyed (the Valar NEVER interfered so directly in Middle Earth's affairs!)

Anyways ...

If you do use Tolkien's Middle Earth, another interesting time lasts from the forging of the Rings to the Last Alliance.
Perhaps the players can defend Eregion and save Celebrimbor. Or aid the Numenorians (perhaps even stop them from falling!) Or help the corrupt Numenorians, and aid Ar-Pharazon to conquer Sauron (and talk him out of invading Valinor.)

Yet another interesting time and place is Eriador from the Rise of Angmar to the Fall of Arthedain.
Anytime in Gondor's history from the Kin-Strife on forward could be interesting.

Rhun, Dorwinion, and Harad are mentioned, but not developed.
Sauron is attempting to seize control of these lands. Can the players stop him?
What lands lie east of Rhun and south of Harad? In ancient history there was the Land of Culvienion, from whence the elves came. And the land of Hildorian, from which men came. If those lands are still around (or even if they are, but much changed) there might be interesting things to be found there.
What about Khazad-Dum? The ultimate dungeon, after it fell. Priorhand, the dwarves were always expanding their mansions, and the Misty Mountains were endless (and filled with endless strange things besides balrogs and Watchers.)
Where did the original dwarves awaken? A question worth answering, and exploring.

Where did hobbits come from? Where are they, in the First Age? The Second Age? Why did they evolve into hobbits? What special event occurred to create hobbits out of men? (or, are they men? Perhaps - heresy! - they come from elves or dwarves.)
Where are the Entwives? Tolkien never answered that. Can your players?

Just some suggestions.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Don't take it so seriously!

If you are going to run a game in Tolkien's Middle Earth, accept that changes to the conception are necessary, and try to have some fun!

If you think Tolkien's world is difficult, try the Land from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
I had a DM who attempted to make the translation. And guess who had the White Gold and thus the Wild Magic? MY character. Heh, talk about Power Gaming!

 

[Desdichado]

A few posters have gleefully pointed out that magic could be used by creatures other than the Maiar and Valar. I've never disputed any such claim. My statement was the kinetic magic could only be used by a Vala or Maia.

It is abundantly clear throughout the text of Tolkien that the Noldor were capable of making what one could roughly call "magic items." I would even concede, despite the paucity of direct text, that the Dwarves of Durin's folk could make such items as well.

However, such magic is not kinetic in any way. The spells take days or weeks to weave and the items have no kinetic properties.

My point is not that there is no magic wielded by Humans, Dwarves and Elves but that kinetic magic is completely outside of anything a character could have access to. I therefore suggest that if one is to play in ME, one should use a game system designed for it not one running in opposition to it.

There is no point in telling me the Istari are Maia and can therefore use kinetic magic. I agree with you. However, their physical forms constrain this -- whether by virtue of Arda physics or the word of Manwe (we can't be sure whether these are one in the same). Galdalf, aided by Narya, however, can use such magic inspite of this constraint.

Kinetic magic -- magic that moves things by force -- evocation, transmutation, conjuration spells.

Most enchantment, divination and illusion spells are not kinetic magic.

OK, now you're just talking wild speculation. Not only is your division of kinetic and non-kinetic absolutely arbitrary and not supported by anything I know in Tolkien's works (and I've read them extensively, including the HoMM series edited and prepared relatively recently by son Christopher) but there's no evidence I know of to point towards several of the other points you just made. Since when do elves and dwarves and the many human sorcerers mentioned only get to do "non-kinetic" magic? Where's your back-up for that? To the best of my knowledge, there's little --if any-- info on what kind of magic they practiced, although the fact that they indeed practiced magic is very clear. Elrond certainly very clearly used "kinetic" magic at the ford of Bruinen.

However, you've come up with another spurious claim for that -- that the three rings of the elves provided a source of kinetic magic. Despite the fact that the descriptions of the purposes of the rings clearly don't jive with this interpretation and the fact that there's not one shred of textual evidence to support it, you use it to dismiss the evidence of Elrond's flood, Galadriels casting down of the walls of Dol Guldor (if indeed that was a magic act) and anything Gandalf does(!) despite the fact that in Gandalf's case no such justification is even needed!

Overall, I find your analysis to be lacking in understanding of the source material.

And since the original poster clearly stated already that he's departing from the source material anyway, I have to wonder what's the point of the arguing. I also have to wonder what's the point of making this Middle-earth if you're departing so far from the original. I'd just make it a standard Oriental Adventures game, and include a few Ringwraiths and the name of Sauron as a vague fear and shadow far in the West.