C&C - My "Battlemat" rules

Mythmere1

First Post
These are the house rules I'm going to propose to my group for tactical combat in C&C. Many are derived or stolen from Scadgrad's rules. These are "battlemat" rules designed for high-tactic battles on a grid with minis.

1) Spells may be cast in melee combat. Spells may be interrupted only if an opponent won initiative and is "holding." If a caster takes damage while casting a spell, he can still succeed in casting the spell if he makes a con save with a CL equal to the damage taken.

2) Free Attack by melee opponent when:
a) You are in melee and try to move around the opponent to flank (or something). The free attack can be avoided if you make a dex save at a CL equal to the opponent's HD. If you have the back attack ability and you make this roll, you get the back attack without needing to move silently as a prerequisite.
b) You withdraw from melee combat. Period. You can't just take a half move and avoid the attack. The only exception is when someone switches places with you.
c) You switch places with someone to pull them out of melee. If you make a successful dex save at the opponent's HD as the CL, you avoid the free attack. The person getting pulled out does not need to make a save and does not incur a free attack. This does not use up the actions of the person pulled out. This action is either pulling out an unconscious person or switching places with someone who's conscious.
d) you enter an area where an opponent is ready to attack, but you want to keep moving past without entering melee. As you breeze past, the opponent gets a free attack unless you can make a move silently roll. It's not precisely because you're moving silently, of course, but it means that rangers can do this outdoors but not indoors.

3) Critical hit on a natural 20 with melee weapons (unless you need a 20 to hit). Bows crit on a 19-20 unless you need a natural 20 to hit. Natural 20 always hits. Natural 1 always misses. Critical hit does [edit - an additional die of] damage from the weapon, but no added modifiers from strength, magic weapon, etc. If you roll the weapon's max damage on the critical hit's additional die, roll again for even more damage. Keep going as long as you keep rolling max damage.

4) Firing into melee is at -4. If you miss, there's a 50% chance that you'll have to roll again to hit someone else (determined randomly based on who is adjacent to the opponent you were aiming at. The second "to hit" roll is also at -4.

5) Flanking and rear attacks are at +1 and +2, per the rules. You can move around an opponent to flank with a dex roll (see above).

6) Prone opponents are +4 AC against missile weapons, -4 AC in melee.

7) Cover is determined by the CK, but ranges from -2 (1/4 cover), -4 (1/2 cover), -6 (3/4 cover).

8) If you're swinging or shooting wildly at an opponent you can't see (but you know is there), you only have a 50% chance to get a to hit roll at all. Clues (footprints, etc) would increase your chance of getting a to hit roll up to 90%.

9) Higher ground gets you a +1 to hit and a +1 to your AC.

[edit - 10) A five foot step can be taken before casting a spell.

Note: I have not distinguished precisely between AC and bonuses/penalties to hit. You can tell what I mean, though.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

That's a lot of saving throws potentially during combat.

For running around behind someone, does that free attack only apply if you are already in melee? If you are not, I assume you can still run around them while staying out of their reach?

You might have spellcasting incur a free attack, but keep the con save to cast. It could even be a non-free attack (using the attack means you give up your normal attack later in the round or next round).

Do we still have the ability to take a 5' step to give the ability to reposition even while spellcasting or fighting?
 

Mythmere1 said:
2) Free Attack by melee opponent when:
a) You etc.
b) You etc.
c) You etc.
d) you etc.
AoO are back?

Mythmere1 said:
Critical hit does damage from the weapon, but no added modifiers from strength, magic weapon, etc. If you roll the weapon's max damage on the critical hit's additional die, roll again for even more damage. Keep going as long as you keep rolling max damage.
Not very clear. I think you forgot an explanation...
 

bolie said:
That's a lot of saving throws potentially during combat.

For running around behind someone, does that free attack only apply if you are already in melee? If you are not, I assume you can still run around them while staying out of their reach?

You might have spellcasting incur a free attack, but keep the con save to cast. It could even be a non-free attack (using the attack means you give up your normal attack later in the round or next round).

Do we still have the ability to take a 5' step to give the ability to reposition even while spellcasting or fighting?

The saving throws replace things like tumble. I don't mind lots of rolling, I mind the calculations that are involved with the 3e mechanism. This allows (I think) 3e type tactics without so much calculation. Just a saving throw and the opponent's HD.

Yes, you can run around someone freely as long as you're out of reach. The house rule about move silently would cover dashing through the enemy battle line to get at the spellcaster in the back, for example.

The theory on allowing lots of freedom to cast spells in melee is that I don't want to provide too many restrictions on wizards, who are already quite weak. If the wiz ends up in combat, I want him to still have spells available.

A five foot step would still be there (I should add that). But stepping out of combat would incur a free attack. It's less of an issue since spellcasters can cast while in melee.
 

I thought I'd post comments here rather than over at the other forum.

I think those look fun and should satisfy your particular group of PCs. I still think that they will rue the day they face a significantly higher level Wizard or Cleric who has any sort of "meat shield" though. While it's true that Wizard's are relatively weak at 1st-3rd level, they do have "auto-kill" ability starting at low levels thanks to Sleep and Color Spray. Enemy clerics are extremely dangerous at every level.

Let's just call that a difference in style though.

The one rule that you have that I fundamentally disagree with is maneuvering to the rear of an opponent who you are currently engaged with. I only allow this if the person doing it is Dex PRIME and if the enemy is already engaged (i.e. engaged by another PC for example). PCs who complain that they should be able to do this because they can do it in D20 are mistaken. D20 RAW does not have facing rules and so you only get your bonus if you've got a buddy positioned in such a way that the enemy is seriously disadvantaged (i.e. flanked). Furthermore, the combat round in d20 is nearly half that of C&C and is very nearly a blow-by-blow affair. It just seems wonky to me that Bob the 1st Lv Fighter, even if he is Dex Prime, would just "pull a fast one" and get behind his hapless opponent who would conveniently fail to turn and face clever Bob for, quite possibly, the entirety of a 10 second round. That might be fine in a Wuxia-type setting, but it doesn't work for me.

But hey, to each his own. If your players dig it, let it happen. It'll certainly suck once all the monsters start doing it too since most of them have P as prime. Just an observation and I may be reading your ruling incorrectly.

Additionally, I think you've a couple of rules in there that are already in RAW C&C or nearly so. Flanking and Rear bonuses are RAW, Cover rules are RAW or nearly so, High Ground is RAW except the AC bonus which I don't think is really a necessary complexity.

Again, I think they'll work fine and if your players like 'em you're set. I still have the sense that it's very easy to cast spells while in melee in Mythmere World. I sure hope your PCs aren't headed into Rappan Athuk or Tomb of Abysthor anytime soon.

:D
 

scadgrad said:
I thought I'd post comments here rather than over at the other forum.

I think those look fun and should satisfy your particular group of PCs. I still think that they will rue the day they face a significantly higher level Wizard or Cleric who has any sort of "meat shield" though. While it's true that Wizard's are relatively weak at 1st-3rd level, they do have "auto-kill" ability starting at low levels thanks to Sleep and Color Spray. Enemy clerics are extremely dangerous at every level.

Let's just call that a difference in style though.

The one rule that you have that I fundamentally disagree with is maneuvering to the rear of an opponent who you are currently engaged with. I only allow this if the person doing it is Dex PRIME and if the enemy is already engaged (i.e. engaged by another PC for example). PCs who complain that they should be able to do this because they can do it in D20 are mistaken. D20 RAW does not have facing rules and so you only get your bonus if you've got a buddy positioned in such a way that the enemy is seriously disadvantaged (i.e. flanked). Furthermore, the combat round in d20 is nearly half that of C&C and is very nearly a blow-by-blow affair. It just seems wonky to me that Bob the 1st Lv Fighter, even if he is Dex Prime, would just "pull a fast one" and get behind his hapless opponent who would conveniently fail to turn and face clever Bob for, quite possibly, the entirety of a 10 second round. That might be fine in a Wuxia-type setting, but it doesn't work for me.

But hey, to each his own. If your players dig it, let it happen. It'll certainly suck once all the monsters start doing it too since most of them have P as prime. Just an observation and I may be reading your ruling incorrectly.

Additionally, I think you've a couple of rules in there that are already in RAW C&C or nearly so. Flanking and Rear bonuses are RAW, Cover rules are RAW or nearly so, High Ground is RAW except the AC bonus which I don't think is really a necessary complexity.

Again, I think they'll work fine and if your players like 'em you're set. I still have the sense that it's very easy to cast spells while in melee in Mythmere World. I sure hope your PCs aren't headed into Rappan Athuk or Tomb of Abysthor anytime soon.

:D

I like the idea of requiring an ally in the combat before you can manuever around. That might also have been what Bolie meant about lots of saving throws. Everyone would always be trying to spin around everyone else if it's a wide-open combat. I actually meant to include the dex prime requirement and just forgot it.

I want to have a good high ground bonus, just to make the terrain important - so to me it's an acceptable added complexity.

What do you think about the spellcasting rule, Bolie? Does it make wizards (including enemy ones) too powerful?
 

I like the rule on casting in combat. I don't think it makes wizards too powerful. They are already too poweful at high levels - this rule doesn't really matter. The absolutely no casting in combat rule with no possibility of getting away from an opponent (unless you can run faster and win initiative more often) really gutted all wizards.

I still don't want to play a low-level wizard. :)

I'm beginning to think that maybe we should go back to 3.5 edition but figure out some way to simplify the monsters... :)

Bolie IV
 

bolie said:
...The absolutely no casting in combat rule with no possibility of getting away from an opponent (unless you can run faster and win initiative more often) really gutted all wizards....

My own houserule still allows Spellcasters to cast when "locked in HtH" provided one of the two situations below is met:

A They win initiative and pass a Con check.

B Are casting a spell designed to "attack" an enemy in HtH (Shocking Grasp for instance). Initiative in this case is irrelevant.

It's actually not just the Wizards that worry me. Enemy Clerics with Hold Person, Command, and the like are "save or dies" if there are any enemy mooks near the hapless PC at the time. For example, in a HUGE combat the other night in our Tomb of Abysthor game, Der_Kluge's PC is just wailing away in the thick of it trying to occupy the chief BG. With the RAW C&C rules that would have most likely been a TPK since Der_Kluge managed to occupy the BBEG for the majority of the combat, limiting his spell casting. He and his fellow HtH combatant would have been cut down quickly and then, robbed of their best 2 combatants, the other's would have surely perished.


bolie said:
...I'm beginning to think that maybe we should go back to 3.5 edition but figure out some way to simplify the monsters... :)

Bolie IV

<shudders>

;)

Never! My C&C houserules are a very sparse 2 page PDF. I duplex print a copy for each PC and so there's really no problem at all.
 

scadgrad said:
My own houserule still allows Spellcasters to cast when "locked in HtH" provided one of the two situations below is met:

A They win initiative and pass a Con check.

B Are casting a spell designed to "attack" an enemy in HtH (Shocking Grasp for instance). Initiative in this case is irrelevant.

It's actually not just the Wizards that worry me. Enemy Clerics with Hold Person, Command, and the like are "save or dies" if there are any enemy mooks near the hapless PC at the time. For example, in a HUGE combat the other night in our Tomb of Abysthor game, Der_Kluge's PC is just wailing away in the thick of it trying to occupy the chief BG. With the RAW C&C rules that would have most likely been a TPK since Der_Kluge managed to occupy the BBEG for the majority of the combat, limiting his spell casting. He and his fellow HtH combatant would have been cut down quickly and then, robbed of their best 2 combatants, the other's would have surely perished.




<shudders>

;)

Never! My C&C houserules are a very sparse 2 page PDF. I duplex print a copy for each PC and so there's really no problem at all.

Bolie is my Der Kluge. :)
 

scadgrad said:
It's actually not just the Wizards that worry me. Enemy Clerics with Hold Person, Command, and the like are "save or dies" if there are any enemy mooks near the hapless PC at the time. For example, in a HUGE combat the other night in our Tomb of Abysthor game, Der_Kluge's PC is just wailing away in the thick of it trying to occupy the chief BG. With the RAW C&C rules that would have most likely been a TPK since Der_Kluge managed to occupy the BBEG for the majority of the combat, limiting his spell casting. He and his fellow HtH combatant would have been cut down quickly and then, robbed of their best 2 combatants, the other's would have surely perished.

It would have worked if the bard had bothered to give me his potion of heroism!!

My character's a loose cannon. Gotta watch out for him! :)

I am very glad that I am Dex prime, though. Very handy.
I just wish the charge rules were a bit more favorable. Otherwise, everything else seems to flow pretty well, IMHO.
 

Remove ads

Top