Calculating XP drives me crazy

[Ciaran]

You could always give out smaller pools of AP that refresh every session instead of every level.

 

[The_Warlock]

You know, you guys are right that the whole "AP & xp pool" thing is unweildy. I could solve the problem just as easily by giving them colored stones to represent APs, but five of those stones are red and can't be turned in for xp. Or just noting it on the character sheet in two boxes, one for convertible and one for non-convertible APs. I'll give that some thought.

Now that you said that, that is interesting...just assume the lowest common denominator for crafting items - rather than a discrete XP pool, just come up with a rough "value" of what an AP is worth in XP and spend the APs to make magic items or cast powerful spells. That way you have one "pool" of things to keep track of, and the AP to XP value is the only reminder you have to write on the character sheet. That resolves the more math than you want issue. And the players can just spend their APs directly to magic item creation and high level spellcasting without extensive bookkeeping.

 

[WizarDru]

"Math is hard, I love shopping! Will we ever have enough clothes?"
~ Teen Talk Barbie

[SHUDDER]

Perhaps this was assumed, PC, but here's a question worth asking: Is this to become your defacto standard for your D&D games, not just the defenders? I'm assuming the answer is 'Yes", since it sounds like you're as concerned with low-levels as well as high.

One thing I've seen with Action Points in use is that they ARE generally hoarded, just like any useful resource. The wizard doesn't use that Wish unless he thinks he has to, or unless he feels the story will demand it. Action points are the same way. This is more dependent on the players and on the individual game.

As long as were getting all heretical here, let me posit this: do you need levels and an advancement mechanic AT ALL? I hate to keep cribbing M&M, but I think it's a good model in many ways. In M&M, the Power-Level advances when the DM says it does. Of course, in M&M you have Power Points instead of XP, which are directly spendable on feats, powers, skills and so forth. You don't have that, and I'm not about to start suggesting an entire alternate system for that (as it would defeat the purpose of simplfying).

But let's consider: what do we need XP for, exactly? Only four that I can recall.

1) Item Creation
2) Levels (adding, draining, losing)
3) Power source for spells
4) Penalty to reinforce character design rules

We've discussed #1 and #3, and action points works just like item creation. Try playing an artificer, particularly at low levels, and you'll see that you often lose xp opportunities to create items due to time constraints as much as xp limits. This problem becomes obvious for any spellcaster at later levels. The flat calculation should solve the problem for that. Alternately, use the 'token' idea. Most of the XP spells are 'limit the players from casting them very often' spells, such as Wish, True Res and so on. You could just give them a flat number of uses for said spells, or again AP tokens. Rather than bother with individual costs (5000 xp. here, 1200 there), make it one token instead of an xp cost for any spell.

Levels could be given when you feel they should be. This obviously requires a great deal of buy-in from your players. Let me ask this: does the 'train for x weeks' restriction really need to stand? I know it's been there since day one...but your characters are epic beings, now....the very stuff of legend, and witnesses to some truly cosmic events. Wouldn't it better to claim that one of the gods changed the way things worked, rather than keep working with 'side-dimensional trips just to bypass the training time'? Perhaps have a rule that after 20th level, that restriction no longer need apply...or have it possible to do an insta-leveling using AP?

Now, one thing I haven't heard discussed is Multiclassing, and the XP penalties that may be associated with it. In all honesty, I've yet to have a player choose that option, because no one is willing to swallow the 10%+ penalty associated with it...but you should factor it in somewhere....IF you think it's even an issue. The main motivation is to reinforce certain design preferences and discourage min/maxing of certain combos. For a system, that's a big deal...for your game, not so much. Well, except for Ben.

 

[Ciaran]

Wouldn't it better to claim that one of the gods changed the way things worked, rather than keep working with 'side-dimensional trips just to bypass the training time'?

Ugh! That way lies madness, the Time of Troubles, and the Avatar Trilogy.

 

[WizarDru]

Ugh! That way lies madness, the Time of Troubles, and the Avatar Trilogy.

It also lies the way of the Death of Imbrindarla, the Rise of a New God of Death, the freeing of the creatures that consumed the world and a few other events. Meeting a Lord of Creation of Spira certainly could fit that bill.

It just doesn't include, you know, the March of the Modrons.

 

[Ciaran]

It also lies the way of the Death of Imbrindarla, the Rise of a New God of Death, the freeing of the creatures that consumed the world and a few other events. Meeting a Lord of Creation of Spira certainly could fit that bill.

I stand corrected.

 

[Piratecat]

It just doesn't include, you know, the March of the Modrons.

You make baby Piratecat cry.

Yeah, I'm considering giving up training time. I'm of mixed mind about it.

 

[The_Warlock]

Well, you could limit training time without axing it entirely. In my run I have a very big list of feats - if a player wants their character to learn a feat not in that list that I would otherwise allow in the world - they either have to spend the time developing their new combat maneuver (or what have you) or have to find a master to teach them (like the Dragoncrafter feat out of the Draconomicon). I also make them take downtime when entering many prestige classes, whether its training or getting invested with new rank or abilities, etc. That way training isn't felt to be enforced drudgery, but it's usually the character(s) learning something rare and unique - and it can be played up as much or as little as everybody wants - sometimes even as a side quest.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I like the concept of giving a straight AP pool, then allowing the player to burn an AP for {(level - 1) *100} in XP.

Maintain the 3 : 1 for donating XP to a project and allow saving XP for a specific project..

Elements of Magic has a ritual casting system in which you pool mana into a special container until you have enough to cast the spell. You could do much the same thing here, allowing mages to collect XP into dragonshards in order to save up for a big item. Saving into a container takes some extra effort, so a you lose 10 percent of the XP pushed into the container.

This also could wander into religions that believe XP is the essense of a persons soul..hunting down the defilers who misuse this essense

As to the problem with hoarding.. perhaps a rule that use of an AP that ends up being heroic and memorable allows you to gain +1 AP at the next level ? Use them well and be rewarded!

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Here are my 2 cents:

I would decouple AP from XP. If you want to give out action points, do it using the Eberron system (5+ 1 per 2 levels?), or modify the formula to something that suits your game.

Award XP each time the party levels at a rate of 500 x old level.

XP and AP are not convertible with one exception (see below).

Unused AP are lost at the next level. Unused XP can be converted to AP that will carry over to the next level at a cost of 1 AP/250 XP (I highly suggest using some kind of token to keep track of AP). Any remaining XP are lost. [this may keep the rate of magic item creation in check, and allows something to use XP on at lower levels]

Item creation: if a party member commisions one of the spellcasters to create an item for them, they can can be the sole donor of XP with no penalty.

Casting spells with XP cost: other party members can donate XP to the spellcaster at a 2:1 (or 3:1) cost.

Raising a dead character: looking at the XP tables, a character 1 level lower gets about 1.25 to 1.4 times more XP depending upon the CR, so it should take about 3 levels to catch up.

My suggestion:

Level 10 party. Joe (poor Joe, he keeps dying) is killed. He is raised and is level 9. Joe immediately loses 2 AP and 1000 XP (if he has less than that already, Joe just has none).

Party levels. Joe, level 10, gets penalized 1AP and 500XP - he has 9AP and 4500XP compared to level 11 party's 10AP and 5500XP.

Party levels again. Joe reaches level 11 but is not penalized, leaving him 10AP and 5500XP compared with level 12 party's party's 11AP and 6000XP

Party levels one more time: Joe makes the jump and everyone is 13th level with 11AP and 6500XP.