Calculating XP drives me crazy

[Piratecat]

This post is going to appall all the members who like using the CR system and calculating experience points precisely. Don't go away just yet, though -- you're the folks I need to find holes in my suggested solution.

First, a confession: I detest calculating XP. It requires figuring out the actual CR of all my home-grown monsters and NPCs, it requires a spreadsheet for each character and encounter, it doesn't take into account the massive story content of my game, it doesn't factor in the fact that my game levels far slower than average, and it requires me to keep better bookkeeping than I currently do (especially when xp-draining spells and item creation gets used.) When I figure out XP, I usually throw a big honkin' story award on top, then even out the numbers so it at least appears that I calculated it the official way.

Shhh, don't tell my players.

Ultimately I want my PCs to all level at the same time, and I can know when that is based on game play and what adventures they've been on (in my game, about every ten 3-hour sessions.) I suppose I could technically just discard XP, except that it's intrinsically tied into item creation and spell usage. So here's what I'm considering:

1. I will add Action Points (AP) from Eberron into my game. Action points normally give you a d6 bonus on any d20 roll (or can be traded in to get extra use of limited class abilities.) As per Eberron rules, you get 5 + 1/2 your level in Action Points every level, and unused ones are discarded. I'll do it differently. Instead...

2. Every level each PC will automatically gain 5 AP and an XP Pool of (1/2 old level x 1000). (Thus, a PC going from 10th to 11th level would get 5 AP and an XP pool of 5000 xp.) Action points can be spent normally, as per Eberron. The XP Pool can be spent to power xp-cost spells and to fund item creation.

-- A character may change their XP Pool into Action Points on a 1-AP per 1000-XP basis. (Thus, the aforementioned character hitting 11th level could eliminate their XP Pool entirely and get 10 Action Points instead, which is how many they'd have gotten automatically in an Eberron game. Or they could use up 3000 xp on an item, and get 7 Action Points.)

-- A character may donate their XP Pool to a spellcaster to help in making magic items, but on a 2-for-1 basis. Thus, if a fighter was donating to help make a magic sword normally costing 1000 xp, he would spend 2000 xp out of his pool.)

3. Any Action Points or XP Pool points left over at the end of a level are lost.

4. When a character dies, of course, they lose a level. The actual DMG system allows them to eventually catch back up to the group, because they get more XP for any given encounter than their higher level buddies. My system doesn't model that.

I think it could, though, by saying that if a character dies, they lost a level. If for the next two levels in a row they give up their 5 "automatic" AP that they would have gotten, they regain their lost level. In other words, you lose an level and get fewer AP for two levels, then go back to your normal character level and number of Action Points.

Consequences I foresee:

- Players get Action Points, which they didn't have before.
- Characters who make items or use spells like wish get far fewer Action Points.
- Everyone levels at once.
- No DM bookkeeping for experience.
- There's a player tradeoff between using Action Points, making magic items, and using XP-draining spells like wish.
- Players track their own XP Pool and Action Points, removing some DM bookkeeping.
- Non-spellcasters get more Action Points, but spellcasters can use spells like wish a very limited number of times.
- The prohibitive XP cost of expensive magic items can be reduced by sharing the load with non-spellcasters, albeit at an inefficient rate.
- Level loss from dying is a temporary thing, really only affecting the PC for two levels before they revert.

Okay, what am I missing? Why would this be a horrible mistake to use in your own game? Where is it possibly open to abuse?

And thanks!

 

[Nifft]

Some potential issues:

1/ Raise Dead and level drain -- how would you deal with a Fighter who loses a level?

2/ The rules are IMHO designed so that a Wizard or Sorcerer can cast wish 5 times in a row at some point in his career. Sure, he could make scrolls and split the XP up over a couple of levels, but that introduces extra book-keeping.

3/ Level Adjustment?


I'd really like to see this solved, because it's a good idea.

-- N

 

[Piratecat]

Some potential issues:

1/ Raise Dead and level drain -- how would you deal with a Fighter who loses a level?

Just edited that in. Good question. To recap:

4. When a character dies, of course, they lose a level. The actual DMG system allows them to eventually catch back up to the group, because they get more XP for any given encounter than their higher level buddies. My system doesn't model that.

I think it could, though, by saying that if a character dies, they lose a level. If for the next two levels in a row they give up their 5 "automatic" AP that they would have gotten, they regain their lost level. In other words, you lose an level and get fewer AP for two levels, then go back to your normal character level and number of Action Points.

Example: Joe the fighter is level 11, and gets 5 AP + an XP Pool of 5500 xp (or really, since Joe is a fighter, 10 AP and 500 xp to donate towards someone's magic item.) He gets killed and drops back to 10th. For 10th and 11th level he only gets his xp pool (5000 and 5500 xp respectively, or 5 AP per level). At the point where he'd hit 12th level, he'd jump back to 13th with the rest of the group, and rocket back to 5 AP + his full XP pool (effectively 11 Action Points).

Huh. Having written that, I don't like it. It leaves him doubly weak after dying, then springs him back to instant full power two levels later.

Any suggestions?

2. At most given this system, a 20th lvl wizard could cast wish twice in a row. (I have a house rule saying that, like miracle, wish doesn't cost XP if you use it to spoof a spell.) That's the trade-off for Action Points and a simple system. I'm okay with this, especially if you use our wish/XP house rule, but not everyone would be. Rejiggering the math to find a different balance in the XP pool really affects what a "reasonable" amount of magic items could be made. That being said, I'm not married to the idea of the XP pool being half of the XP needed to advance a level, but it does feel right to me.

3. Level adjustment... hmm. I hadn't considered it. Suggestions? My expectation is that they'd gain AP and an XP pool based on their character level including the level adjustment, just to keep them on par with the other PCs.

 

[Nifft]

Hmm.. what about, if you die, you forever lose 1 Action Point at each level. That part of your luck has been eaten by the Fate-Eating Death Beast ("the Fativore").

You can restore this by an act of exceedingly good karma (the sort of thing that would grant you +1 Force point, like blowing up the Death Star, or destroying an evil artifact).

-- N

 

[Piratecat]

That's really interesting. Would you lose a level, too? Losing a level, temporarily or permanently, is a much bigger penalty than just losing an action point. My campaign is one where I like to emphasize the seriousness of death, so this will be important to get right.

 

[Ciaran]

As per Eberron rules, you get 5 + 1/2 your level in Action Points every level, and unused ones are discarded.

Unused points are discarded? I don't have the Eberron book, but I'd assume they work like Action Points in the SRD, and there's no indication there that unused APs are discarded when you level up.

Why not allow PCs to bank Action Points and pooled XP from level to level? Will that break anything?

 

[Piratecat]

Eberron rules seem to be substantially more restrictive than the SRD rules. In Eberron you can do fewer 'special effects,' they cost more, and you lose unspent points.

My initial thought is that people will tend to hoard the things if they don't disappear, and hording is inherently less fun than using them. One thing I know; if I allowed the points to carry over, I wouldn't allow xp sharing for item creation.

Here's a possible solution. Allow xp donations for magic items and xp-cost spells, but at a prohibitive 3-for-1 rate. Thus, if a wizard really had to cast wish (costing 5000 xp), he could donate 2000 xp and three other people touching him could also donate 3000 xp each; at the three for one exchange, that would total the required 5K. That seems to be a significent enough penalty that it will seldom be used on a whim, but it's available for emergencies. I also like the cool dynamic of drawing on other peoples' life force to power items and spells.

-- o --

To compensate for death, I'm leaning towards still having the person lose 5 action points for two levels, but spreading those levels out a bit more.

1. Joe, an 11th lvl fighter, dies and is raised. Joe is now 10th lvl. The other people in his adventuring party are all 11th level.

2. For 10th lvl, Joe keeps the number of action points and the xp Pool he had when he died: 5 Action Points + 5500 xp Pool (effectively 10 AP.)

3. The party levels; his friends are 12th, but Joe is now 11th level. Joe is penalized his base 5 AP. He just gets 5500 xp in his pool, which he can convert to 5 AP if he wishes.

4. The party levels again. His friends are 13th, and now Joe skips back up to 13th as well (effectively breezing through 12th.) Joe is still feeling a penalty for dying, though; he is still penalized 5 AP this level too, so he only gets 6000 xp in his pool (effectively 6 Action Points.)

5. The party levels once more. Joe, and everyone else, are 14th level. Joe gets 5 AP + 6500 xp in his Pool (effectively 11 Action Points.).

Hmmm. Still penalizes the person who died; they spend two levels lower than everyone else, and lose a total of 10 action points (spread out over two levels.) A little too hard to remember, but it might work.

 

[Ciaran]

Aside from the fact that the rules already provide a penalty for dying, why include one in your new rules? Is this to simulate how you see death and resurrection working in your world, or is this a metagame penalty to encourage players to avoid getting their PCs killed?

 

[shilsen]

Personally, I've dropped the "XP by CR" system and would never go back to it. I'd have dropped XP too and just have people level at the same time, but a lot of my PCs do use XP for things like item creation. So I just award a fixed amount of XP (normally about 1000) per session. It ensures that everyone does have an XP total when needed. It's also a lot simpler than the XP-for-action-points system you outlined. It's not that I think yours is unworkable but that it's just a little clunky.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think this is a very interesting retake on the XP system.. which I too dislike for much the same reasons..


But this is not just a 'me 2' post

For level loss, following the lines of Nifft..
minor edit to the negative level rules. Negative levels do not go away and force a reduction of the entire characters level. Instead they stay around forever..
well, almost forever. A character may voluntarily reduce his AP pool by 1 in order to eliminate a negative level. This action requires the expenditure of an Action Point....

Raise dead, et al.. incur a Negative Level that does not naturally heal. {no save after 24 hours}


In this manner your Joe can either face fighting with the negative levels penalties, or face gaining only 4 AP + xp award at the next level.
If Joe died again, he could chose to reduce his next level gains to 3AP.
etc..
In my usual campaign, I would extend this rule to include burning 1k of xp award as well, meaning the character could face 10 negative levels before needing to retire. {I tend to have Vampires available as BBEGs }

This makes tracking relatively simple, no juggling of character abilities and worrying about re-selection of feats when someone recovers a level they lost. All you need to track are negative levels and the 'cap' on AP awards.
Additionally, death gets to have a bit more of a bite to it.

IMO, losing a level and then not gaining any AP..which tend to encourage more flamboyant and risky play..may bring a tendency for a more conservative approach to the game.
{depending alot on the occurances of death in your game, of course}

regarding xp lending, I favor the 3 : 1 version

============
All that being said, if you have a group as mine tend to be..with non-certain participation, the xp award is a decent incentive to maintain regular attendance. {I have a liberal policy regarded excused absenses as being military there are always unplanned exceptions..}

I use an Excel calculator that does all the hard work for me, and makes for a handy session planning tool. Admittably I hip-shot most of the CR's as well...