Call of Cthulhu- which version should I buy?

[Desdichado]

I noticed however, they didn't do this as much when playing the d20 version, because they had that wonderful false hope that the d20 version seems to inspire.

False hope is right. Because it's d20 players may hope that they will get better, but it's not my experience that they actually do. I honestly don't understand that folks who say that d20 is more "pulp" or action-oriented than BRP. As someone earlier point out, up until probably about 4th or 5th level, you are actually weaker than BRP characters. And levelling up is hardly a given. There are no actual rules for it in the book; it's completely GM fiat. I've never had a CoCd20 character higher than third level, and that was the level we started at.

I read the first two pages, but not that last, so maybe this point has been made, but I haven't seen it yet: d20 CoC is much more supported than BRP, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, they don't have the "classic" modules like Masks of Nyarlathotep or what have you, but IMO those modules aren't really that great; they're linear, railroaded, hack-n-slash messes. For d20 CoC, you can use d20 Modern adventures more or less as written. And there's plenty of good ones; Bloodlines by 12toMidnight being a great game that could be used as is in d20 CoC. Plus you can use any other d20 resource. Need more demons/animals/monsters/etc.? You have a metric buttload of them in d20 that are directly portable as is into CoC. And that goes the other way as well -- need Hounds of Tindalos in your D&D game? CoC is happy to oblige, with no tweaking required.

I also think the idea that the support for BRP is really great is missing an important point; there's very little mechanical information of any kind in any of those products, so they are almost as usable in d20 as they are in BRP anyway.

And the d20 book is much better looking than the BRP one. And it's hardback, while the standard BRP is paperback. The art is better. It's full color. It's better written. It's got a better Mythos section. It's got the best GMing advice ever written. And your players (most likely) need expend very little effort to learn the system as it's a simplified and significantly weakened cousin to D&D.

I dunno; to me, it's so overwhelmingly one-sided in favor of d20 that I'm honestly mystified that anyone still recommends BRP at all other than for the nostalgia.

 

[jcfiala]

I also think the idea that the support for BRP is really great is missing an important point; there's very little mechanical information of any kind in any of those products, so they are almost as usable in d20 as they are in BRP anyway.

Indeed. I've got a group of D&D'ers who I'm turning to the Cthulhu side of the force. (Well, two of them have played CoC before, in BRP.) On request, I'm running CoC D20 - they already know all the rules and how they work. They also know just how fragile they are, too - these are people who are used to long campaigns and dropping from 50 to -5 hit points on a bad round.. going from 15 to -35 seems a lot more deadly to them.

But my point was - I ran as an introductory adventure 'Mirror Mirror' in TUO #13 - which I recommend - and didn't have to make any conversions until the third session, when combat actually happened... and I didn't have to make much of a conversion, other than for the *new* monster. If it had used an existing one that had been converted, it would have been even easier. I think I spent 30 minutes on converting one evil mad sorcerer, and one monster... and that includes looking up d20 equivalents and typing in their abilities. I could have run it 'back of the envelope' by simply dividing all % by ten, an using that as a bonus... or if I'd wanted to do addition too, adding the related ability bonus. Works fine.

A lot of people who think that d20 characters are more durable are thinking of either level 15 characters - who don't exist in any of my games - or they're forgetting the lack of a dodge skill to get out of the way of attacks and the addition of the 15 point save-or-die massive damage rule.

 

[Henry]

...you might be selling your players short. There is a grim adult seriousness to DG that you want your players to GET. This is the last fight this is the end times. The Midnight players on the ENWorld board will get the tropes.

Delta Green, as envisioned, isn't fun with SMGs, it is grim, end times world. That is the nature of the beast. Not fun, everything dies, holding action.

GURPS I understand has a good MIB game?

I agree, and no matter how much I stress atmosphere, my players don't play BRP call of cthulhu like Delta Green, they approach it like Paranoia, minus the clones.

 

[King of Old School]

I dunno; to me, it's so overwhelmingly one-sided in favor of d20 that I'm honestly mystified that anyone still recommends BRP at all other than for the nostalgia.

Some people will always prefer the BRP system to class/level-based d20, and don't care about the other stuff (compatibility with D&D, full-colour art, etc.). Incidentally, most of the recent editions of CoC-BRP -- v5.5, the 20th Anniversary Edition, and the first printing of v6.0 -- have been hardback; only the recent second printing of v6.0 has been a paperback.

Personally I like both versions of CoC about equally. I agree with you that the Mythos and gamemastering chapters of CoCd20 are fantastic and worth owning in and of themselves; I disagree with you that the classic CoC modules are bad (esp. Masks) or that the d20M freebies are worthy of comparison, but tastes vary and you're right that conversion of the classic stuff to d20 is relatively easy.

KoOS

 

[Desdichado]

Some people will always prefer the BRP system to class/level-based d20, and don't care about the other stuff

Right; it's a good system, and if you just like it, then you just like it. But objectively its hard to make a case that it's in any way better. Or that the d20 conversion is either; with d20, the "other stuff" is what tips the balance, I think.

I disagree with you that the classic CoC modules are bad (esp. Masks) or that the d20M freebies are worthy of comparison, but tastes vary and you're right that conversion of the classic stuff to d20 is relatively easy.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the d20M freebies, I'm talking about modules you can purchase. Bloodlines, that I mentioned earlier, is a pdf available on rpgnow.com. There's some other good horror modules for d20 Modern that I've seen here and there that can be played as is, or "Mythosed up" for very little hassle.

 

[KaosDevice]

I agree, and no matter how much I stress atmosphere, my players don't play BRP call of cthulhu like Delta Green, they approach it like Paranoia, minus the clones.

Ok, that was milk out nose funny.

 

[Committed Hero]

Sure, they don't have the "classic" modules like Masks of Nyarlathotep or what have you, but IMO those modules aren't really that great; they're linear, railroaded, hack-n-slash messes.

Actually d20 conversions for several adventures, including the popular intro "The Haunting" and Masks of Nyarlathotep," have been posted at yog-sothoth.com.

 

[KaosDevice]

I also think the idea that the support for BRP is really great is missing an important point; there's very little mechanical information of any kind in any of those products, so they are almost as usable in d20 as they are in BRP anyway.

Like most things in life this is true in one sense, false in another and both true and false at the same time. I've never been a big fan of rules mechanics. I don't really need a full moon chart or a rule system for adjucating duck feeding cycles, less is better in my book. But some rule sets are cool and fun, car chase rules spring to mind. But can the adventures be turned into D20 mechanics with a minimum of trouble? Absolutely. You are dead on there.

And the d20 book is much better looking than the BRP one. And it's hardback, while the standard BRP is paperback. The art is better. It's full color.

You obviously don't have one of the leather bound anniversary edition hardbacks with the elder sign on the cover. Not only is it one of the most gorgeous game books I own, it is one of the most gorgeous books I own period.

It's better written. It's got a better Mythos section. It's got the best GMing advice ever written. And your players (most likely) need expend very little effort to learn the system as it's a simplified and significantly weakened cousin to D&D.

I will agree about the GM section and politely disagree about the Mythos section. Really though this is a very pro-D20 place so, naturally, folks here lean towards that version. It's no big deal and I have no problem with anyone that does.

I dunno; to me, it's so overwhelmingly one-sided in favor of d20 that I'm honestly mystified that anyone still recommends BRP at all other than for the nostalgia.

Well this just bothers me. You know Wham had a huge amount of fans in the 80's. People LOVED Titanic. Lots of people love lots of things, that doesn't make said thing the right choice for any other group of people just because of majority opinion. I'm really suprised you used that argument JD, that's not your usual logical and well thought out style.

 

[King of Old School]

Right; it's a good system, and if you just like it, then you just like it. But objectively its hard to make a case that it's in any way better. Or that the d20 conversion is either; with d20, the "other stuff" is what tips the balance, I think.

But most of the "other stuff" is just as subjective as system preference. I mean, I can't fathom how someone who likes CoC could dislike John Tynes' take on the Mythos or the genre, but I know of people who feel this way (and adamantly so). Likewise, I know a number of people who prefer the art in later versions of BRP-CoC to CoCd20 (which I can understand, esp. the Paul Carrick and Gene Day stuff), or who prefer B&W art to colour art in game books as a general rule (which I can't understand, but there you go).

Well this just bothers me. You know Wham had a huge amount of fans in the 80's. People LOVED Titanic. Lots of people love lots of things, that doesn't make said thing the right choice for any other group of people just because of majority opinion. I'm really suprised you used that argument JD, that's not your usual logical and well thought out style.

I think JD was referring to the overwhelming advantage of positive traits the d20 version had over the BRP version (i.e. colour, hardback, better art), not an overwhelming advantage of popular acclaim. Indeed, I think the opposite is true.

KoOS

 

[psychic mind flayer]

I've always felt that BRP is better at reproducing a Lovecraftian feeling. In his stories, by the end of it, the main character is always practically saying that he wishes he had never been involved with anything in the first place, and there's always a sense that htere is nothing you can do to stop the power of the Mythos. In the d20 version, with leveling up and all that, it just becomes too much like D&D in that you become self-centered and stop caring about saving the world and start being too selfish. Don't get me wrong, i love D&D, but still, i like BRP better, because, as it has been said, by four adventures, you're either dead or insane, and that's closer to Lovecraft's stories htan just becoming omnipowerful and indestructible.

Of course, if you limit how many levels you can advance, that's a different story.