Calling all number crunchers - UA ?

[The Souljourner]

I don't have the book, but it sure sounds like ECL to me. "Phantom Levels" sounds suspiciously like "Level Adjustment" for non-standard races. If your players understand and accept level adjustments, what's the problem with phantom levels?

-The Souljourner

 

[Jon Potter]

I don't have the book, but it sure sounds like ECL to me. "Phantom Levels" sounds suspiciously like "Level Adjustment" for non-standard races.

It is very much like Level Adjustment except for the fact that the granted abilities come piecemeal over the course of 20 levels (in the case of a major bloodline). Giving such a character an ECL from the outset for a gain of +1 to Bluff at first level smacks of overkill IMO. I'm sure that's why they placed the Levels-that-Aren't-Levels at intervals rather than front-loading them.

If your players understand and accept level adjustments, what's the problem with phantom levels?

I think their complaint is that with a typical ECL character (say a drow) you don't work for the extra experience. You just start as a first level character when the rest of your party is third. With the Bloodlines, you're forced to actually pay for nothing with your hard-earned xp rather than get it behind you at the outset.

I must admit that I see their point, and find the phantom level system to be a little clunky. I'm just not sure there's anything I can do about it.

 

[Jon Potter]

My Very First Triple Post!

How exciting.

 

[Jon Potter]

Triple Post.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is exactly Level Adjustment, just done in perhaps a better way -- you don't 'front load' your character, you get them over the progress of your character.

Really, I think that if your players balk at the cost, I think they're going to balk at anything that is balanced with the cost, too. If they think it's too much, they think it's too much. But if you want to perhaps mitigate it, distribute it lightly, etc., you can just allow them to 'pay' the following XP at any point to get the bloodline power. They could even pay it over the course of levels by taking a fixed amount from them:

Minor = 11,000 xp, or 550 XP/level
Intermediate =16,000 XP, or 800 XP/level
Major = 18,000 xp, or 900 xp/level.

This is based on the amount of XP needed to gain the 'bloodline level,' but allows you to disperse it as you see fit. IMHO, phantom levels work better, since otherwise that poor 1st level character with a major bloodline is going to need almost double the XP to gain a level.

At first level, this basically equates to 55%, 80%, and 90% XP penalties, respectively, but this % decreases over time, so that by the time you're near the 'phantom levels,' your power is roughly equal with anyone else at that point (a third level character using the usual bloodline rules devotes about 33% of his levels to the bloodline, whereas a 10th level blood with a minor bloodline has only about 10% of his levels; an intermediate bloodline at 10th level would be about 20%).

Anyhoo, not sure if this will appease them, but it's reasonably well-balanced, still.

 

[The Souljourner]

Ahh, I see. Have they not seen Savage Species/Dragon articles about starting at low levels and taking monster classes and ECL? It's exactly the same thing.

And they're not really getting *nothing* for those levels, are they? Either you get X ability when you pay for the phantom level, or you already got X ability, and are actually paying for it *after* you get it. There's never a time when you pay for a phantom level and still have absolutely no benefit from the bloodline, right?

They need to think of it as multiclassing into a class that has the abilities the bloodline gives them, not like it's a feat or something that just appears for free.

-The Souljourner

 

[Jon Potter]

They need to think of it as multiclassing into a class that has the abilities the bloodline gives them, not like it's a feat or something that just appears for free.

I never thought to couch it in those terms. That might make a real difference.

 

[Jon Potter]

It is exactly Level Adjustment, just done in perhaps a better way -- you don't 'front load' your character, you get them over the progress of your character.

I disagree with you on this point. I really dislike the idea of being docked xp for something you've had all along. I do agree with you that it amounts to LA, but I don't think it's a very elegant system as written.

But if you want to perhaps mitigate it, distribute it lightly, etc., you can just allow them to 'pay' the following XP at any point to get the bloodline power. They could even pay it over the course of levels by taking a fixed amount from them:

Minor = 11,000 xp, or 550 XP/level
Intermediate =16,000 XP, or 800 XP/level
Major = 18,000 xp, or 900 xp/level.

This is based on the amount of XP needed to gain the 'bloodline level,' but allows you to disperse it as you see fit. IMHO, phantom levels work better, since otherwise that poor 1st level character with a major bloodline is going to need almost double the XP to gain a level.

Now this I like! It doles out the penalty in the same fashion that the abilities are given: slowly over the course of the character's career. Of course, it showcases my pathetic math skills in the process; this is a far cry from my 15% xp penalty.

 

[Silveras]

It is exactly Level Adjustment, just done in perhaps a better way -- you don't 'front load' your character, you get them over the progress of your character.

Actually, there is one important difference: The "Bloodline levels" stack with other class levels for class-level-based effects (Maximum Skill Ranks, Caster checks to penetrate SR, for example, or caster level for spell effects).

For that reason, it really is best regarded as multi-classing into a class with +0 BAB, +0 skill points, +0 Fort/Ref/Will saves, and so on).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If you read the bloodline levels text, you'll see that they have to take the bloodline levels before a certain point (before level x). They could take these levels in the beginning, like with normal level adjustment.

But taking them later is actually better. This way, you won't be a level 1 character when everyone else is level 4. Because such characters have roughly 1/3 of the other players' hit points (they get the 1st HD full, like normal) and are as fragile as a glass sphere at an earthquake.
The thumbrule is that you should have at least half as much HD as you have effective levels (a drow, for example is no good idea before level 4, level 5 preferrably).
And bloodline levels are even more generous than the LA-race-classes from Savage Progressions, because you get something every level (even when you won't get an additional LA).