Calling out, "systems mastery"

[N'raac]

Nope. You're asserting that metamagicked spells are different. You'd best back it up.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=K[/URL]]known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

One does not have metamagic feat altered spells in one's spellbook, nor does a metamagic'd version of a spell need to be selected by a Bard or a Sorcerer as part of acquiring spells on level advancement.

To your other note, the text is "3rd level". Interpret that for me without context.

 

[Nezkrul]

I do not believe they "know" spells with metamagic feats applied.

I recall that I read somewhere in the one of the books that you can pick spells you know, and learn them as a "base" spell when you can learn new spells, with one of your metamagic feats applied, so that it becomes a spell of that level anyways. Or am I just thinking of something similar and not that?

CJ, Elven Wizard's effect only happens when you prepare spells, I already cited it clearly that it states so. Gonna have to come up with something different.

 

[Cadence]

Here again we get to interpretation, in this instance of the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcasting. Can it be taken by clerics and druids, who can spontaneously cast certain spells, or must one have the spontaneous spellcasting ability for all spells of the class as a class feature?

Do Clerics and Druids technically not "know" any spells (thus blocking them from versatile caster)?

One question in the 3.5 FAQ is: "Does the ability to spontaneously cast domain spells granted by the Domain Spontaneity feat (CD) fulfill the spell requirement of the reserve feats from CM?"

The answer begins: "Not technically. Since you don't have a list of spells known, only a list of spells prepared and the ability to cast some spells spontaneously..."

EDIT: I guess this was taken care of by the link to the glossary while I was typing! Doh. Interesting point about a meta-magicked one not being knowable by that definition.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Very little in the rules is precisely defined. Hence, the need for interpretations.

Wrong.

Really? Does that include your first level wizard we keep hearing about?

Yep.

I wondered how long before we got "rope trick is unbeatable". Where are you keeping your spellbooks,

Personally, I like a Haversack, but it doesn't matter too much.

remembering you can't bring an extradimensional space into the Rope Trick's space?

Actually you can. Nothing is restricting it, nor are there any effects for doing so.

Except it is actually an interpretation, not a "fiat". Thanks for playing. Maybe you can come up with one that's not hilarious or just sad next time.

Wrong. It's fiat because there's nothing in the text that can possibly be interpreted that way.

Ignoring all other issues, the character must combine 2 L1 slots to cast a L2 spell he knows. Until he combines the 2 slots, he does not know any L2 spells. If he does not know any L2 spell, he cannot combine the slots to cast one. Done.

Wrong.

How many feats does that make for your first level elven generalist?

Two, because Heighten is unnecessary.

One does not have metamagic feat altered spells in one's spellbook, nor does a metamagic'd version of a spell need to be selected by a Bard or a Sorcerer as part of acquiring spells on level advancement.

Nice try, but lolno.

CJ, Elven Wizard's effect only happens when you prepare spells, I already cited it clearly that it states so. Gonna have to come up with something different.

I've already addressed this. You're wrong. And even if you were right, it wouldn't matter, because of Domain Wizard. So, at worst, it would take a couple hours to set up 9s, and once you had them it would be self-perpetuating, even if you were correct. But at least this is a better try that what a certain other poster in this thread has been ineffectually hammering at.

 

[tomBitonti]

Let me know if you have better reference text. This is what I found:

Alacritous Cognition

If you leave an arcane spell slot open when preparing spells, you can
use that open slot to cast any arcane spell you know of the same level
or lower. Casting the spell requires a full-round action. You can use
this feat only once per day, regardless of the number of slots you
leave open.

Versatile Wizard

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know
that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can
expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Domain Wizard

A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list
of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. These spells
do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level.

Spellcasting: A domain wizard prepares and casts spells like a normal
wizard. However, a domain wizard gains one bonus spell per spell
level, which must be filled with the spell from that level of the
domain spell list (or with a lower-level domain spell that has been
altered with a metamagic feat).

Generalist Wizard

The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of her highest
spell level each day.

How are these being chained together to enable casting of a higher
level spell? I don't see that Versatile Wizard grants the ability to
cast spells which are not already known. That is, a fifth level
wizard (who can cast 3'rd level spells) cannot use this to cast a 4'th
level spell, since the wizard knows none of those. A fifth level
wizard can't use this to cast a 3'rd level spell at a higher caster
level. From the example, the sorcerer already knows the higher
level spell that they are casting.

Thx!

TomB

 

[MerricB]

The Contingency + Celerity trick is not allowed at 1st level, correct?

 

[Tovec]

I'm still confused. Where do the extra slots come from?

I get from the vague wording in the UA that you are arguing that as soon as you have a spell of a certain slot (able to cast 2 2nd level spells, means 3rd level slot and thus up to 9th) that you know all. But I don't understand where you are getting these slots at first level. Perhaps it is some other part of the build I haven't seen yet.

But if you need 2 lvl 1 slots to get a lvl 2 spell, and 2 2s to get a 3 and so on.. then to get one 9th you need 2 8th, 4 7th, 8 6th, 16 5th, 32 4th, 64 3rd, 128 2nd and 256 1st (512 0s) to get a single 9th level spell at first level.

What am I missing? Because if it had been this easy to defeat the argument it would have been thought of before.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Let me know if you have better reference text. This is what I found:

How are these being chained together to enable casting of a higher level spell? I don't see that Versatile Wizard grants the ability to cast spells which are not already known. That is, a fifth level wizard (who can cast 3'rd level spells) cannot use this to cast a 4'th level spell, since the wizard knows none of those. A fifth level wizard can't use this to cast a 3'rd level spell at a higher caster level. From the example, the sorcerer already knows the higher
level spell that they are casting.

Versatile Spellcaster gives the wizard the ability to cast the spells, therefore Domain Wizard gives it to them known.

If this isn't good enough(Even though it's exactly what the rules say), then you could easily go down the road of Heighten, or if you're just flat-out making up rules to disallow that like the OP is, then sell your ing soul using the FCII rules for an extra bonus feat and get Sanctum Spell. Or use a metamagic storm, but I don't remember their pricing off the top of my head.

Mod note: Folks, watch your language. The language filter is not there so you can say what you want and not worry because you'll get bleeped. If you're not keeping your discussion where the filter isn't necessary, there is a problem with the discussion.

Keep it civil. Thanks, all! ~Umbran

The Contingency + Celerity trick is not allowed at 1st level, correct?

This hypothetical level 1 wizard has 9th level spells. Contingency+Celerity is among the least of its powers.

What am I missing? Because if it had been this easy to defeat the argument it would have been thought of before.

The extra slot of the Elven Wizard ACF. It applies at your highest level. Basically, 2 level 1 slots gives you a level 2 spell, which gives you two level 2 slots, which gives you a level 3 spell, which gives you two level 3 slots and so on.

 

[MerricB]

This hypothetical level 1 wizard has 9th level spells. Contingency+Celerity is among the least of its powers.

Please check the text of Contingency: there is a minimum caster level. Contingency + Celerity is illegal for a 1st level caster.

 

[MerricB]

Is the 1st level wizard casting 9th level spells required to be a Domain Wizard, or is there another way to gain the ability?