Campaign Conundrum 1 - Silence

[reveal]

But it does mean that it still exists and still has a location

But not wholy intact, which would disrupt the spell.

Besides, it really doesn't look like it matters anyway.

 

[Starglim]

I couldnt find the definition of 'destroyed' in d&d in any of my books. Did I miss one? Generally I take 'destroyed' to mean, 'no longer functions in the designed way' or 'broken'.

Let's see:

de·stroy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v. tr.
To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
To do away with; put an end to: “In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness” (George Bernard Shaw).
To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

Thus at minimum "destroyed" means that the item is ruined completely, broken up, or rendered useless or ineffective, but it could equally well mean that it is done away with, demolished, or completely undone such as paper burned by fire.

 

[IronWolf]

No, you can't.

Why not?

I may disagree with you definition of destroyed. I take destroyed to mean something like this:

PCs attack a enemy catapult laying seige to a keep. After some work the PCs manage to "destroy" the catapult by taking to 0hp. I don't see the catapult disappearing, but rather becoming unusuable. Craft does allow for repair so the catapult could be repaired. I think Heroes of Battle has some suggestions on repairing such seige weapons if I recall correctly.

 

[Scion]

But not wholy intact, which would disrupt the spell.

It seems like a destroyed object would not be a valid target, but that does not end the spell.

The duration hasnt ended, the target being invalid hasnt ended it, so we are looking at simply something special about the 'destroyed' condition which might end the spell prematurely?

'Destroyed' strikes me the same as 'dead' generally. But just because you go from being 'alive' to 'dead' doesnt mean that the spell ends.

Besides, it really doesn't look like it matters anyway.

Nah I just like to be sure about the raw. I like to have something other than, 'just because, deal' to tell my players.

In this case I dont feel that the arguement is much stronger than that however very unfortunate.

 

[Starglim]

Why not?

I may disagree with you definition of destroyed. I take destroyed to mean something like this:

PCs attack a enemy catapult laying seige to a keep. After some work the PCs manage to "destroy" the catapult by taking to 0hp. I don't see the catapult disappearing, but rather becoming unusuable. Craft does allow for repair so the catapult could be repaired. I think Heroes of Battle has some suggestions on repairing such seige weapons if I recall correctly.

The text that I quoted specifically excludes destroyed items from being repaired using Craft. I'm looking at page 166, PHB, first column.

 

[Scion]

Thus at minimum "destroyed" means that the item is ruined completely, broken up, or rendered useless or ineffective, but it could equally well mean that it is done away with, demolished, or completely undone such as paper burned by fire.

Which means that there are varying degrees of destroyed which are meaningful in the real world and in d&d.

A large object burned completely to ashes is 'destroyed' the same item hit with an axe a few times is 'destroyed'. In one case you have a nearly functional, but not, object. In the other you have something that you might not even be able to tell that there was something functional before at all.

Hence the issue I am having here. Destroyed just isnt that meaningful 'because' it can mean so many different things.

In the case of an arrow it is all the way from an arrow with its fletchings torn off (it wont work, so it must be broken/destroyed by definition) to it being burned to ashes and scattered to the winds.

Likely this is just an issue with the hp system and how things are actually put together.

However, in this case, the only way that I could see the spell to end is if the item is completely gone. As in, completely destroyed, rather than just broken.

Yet, we only have one definition, hp = 0 which is destroyed. Either there is no 'broken' status and everything disentegrates or something else is up.

Definately very odd. Nothing ever breaks, it only dissapears, very videogameish

 

[IronWolf]

The text that I quoted specifically excludes destroyed items from being repaired using Craft. I'm looking at page 166, PHB, first column.

Ah, yep, it does say that. Looks like the rules do more to back the folks up who say the silence spell stops when the arrow hits someone as it is destroyed.

 

[Scion]

interestingly enough:

Mending
Transmutation
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Target: One object of up to 1 lb.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
Mending repairs small breaks or tears in objects (but not warps, such as might be caused by a warp wood spell). It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists.
Ceramic or wooden objects with multiple breaks can be invisibly rejoined to be as strong as new. A hole in a leather sack or a wineskin is completely healed over by mending. The spell can repair a magic item, but the item’s magical abilities are not restored. The spell cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands, nor does it affect creatures (including constructs).

Make Whole
Transmutation
Level: Clr 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level
This spell functions like mending, except that make whole completely repairs an object made of any substance, even one with multiple breaks, to be as strong as new. The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands. The spell does not repair items that have been warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized, nor does it affect creatures (including constructs).

So, a wooden object, such as an arrow, with multiple breaks (read: destroyed) can be repaired through the use of either of these spells.

These spells still treat the item as a single object.

Nicely it even goes so far as to list different levels of 'destroyed'.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Wow, we're quite a bit off-topic here, aren't we?! The discussion is not about whether an archer can hit a 5' square from 100', the question is whether a silence spell cast on the arrow should survive the shot made.

Reread the original post. It asks three questions. The "5' square from 100'" is Question Number Three.


RC

 

[reveal]

How about his: Let's say a wand is destroyed in the same fashion as the arrow is destroyed. Can the wand still be used to cast spells? If not, why not? You still have part of the wand. Why not use it to cast the spell?

I would say that since the wand is destroyed, it is useless. I look at arrows in the same fashion.