Can a dead character be healed by RAW? (Forked Thread: Bloodied vs. Dying)

[keterys]

That's fair - I just wanted to clear up any misunderstanding there. Cheers

 

[subrosas]

Unfortunately I _can_ pick and choose.

then later....

Quote From Me "In either case we are injecting our opinions into RAW rather than reading what is actually written."

Quote From Keterys: No... we're not.

By picking and choosing which rules you believe to be poorly defined and which you believe are absurd (characters can take actions unless there is an exception - but no exception is provided for dead characters - clearly absurd) but working as intended (dying characters are clearly still bloodied despite that no where in the rules is it stated that dying characters are bloodied), you are injecting your opinion into RAW. It's called interpretation.

And that's fine. We all have our opinions on how to interpret the rules. But neither I, nor Keterys, nor Flipguarder, nor anyone else in this thread is the final arbiter on what the rules mean.

 

[Eldorian]

Is there a rule that says you have to play with someone who makes ridiculous RAW arguments?

I think the RAW is that you have to take this person out into the desert and dump them. Or maybe that's just our house rule.

 

[keterys]

dying characters are clearly still bloodied despite that no where in the rules is it stated that dying characters are bloodied

Nor is it stated that Dying characters are no longer bloodied. The only rule, quite clear, is that you're bloodied when you're below half health.

I'd 100% believe that someone writing the rules intended you to no longer be bloodied while Dying. A state system wherein you transfer from Healthy to Bloodied to Dying to Dead would work out quite nicely. I'd also believe, based on a few data points, that someone writing monsters and powers and feats believed you were bloodied whenever your hp dropped below half, including below 0...

So all we've got is one rule - you're bloodied below half hp. 0, -10, and -20 are all below half hp. That's why it'd be good if someone found a rule that actually said otherwise.

you are injecting your opinion into RAW. It's called interpretation.

Correct. And it is possible for rules to be poorly written and unclearly written. It's also possible for rules to be extremely precise.

How many surges does a paladin start with? 10 + Con. Is there any way to look at it that you get, perhaps, 9 + Con or 11 + Con?

Glancing over the discussion there's also some differences here - I mean, I was happy to treat this thread with complete tongue in cheek until somehow it was decided that exception design and DM interpretation meant that you can't prone oozes, push primordials, or anything at all the DM feels like. I object entirely to that theory.

Bloodied while Dying is one thing that frankly has almost no impact on the game between people who like a sorta White Wolf progression track compared to those who see a mathematical statement. But as far as I'm concerned DMs and players need to agree on how the game is played, and pulling the rug out from under players on a whim isn't the way to do it. Oozes aren't immune to prone because a DM isn't imaginative enough to visualize one splattered sufficiently across that it requires a moment to pull itself back together and primordials aren't immune to being pushed because a player chose to play a halfling instead of a goliath. Be honest, discuss the things that bother you, make appropriate house rules or change creatures appropriately in a fair manner. Give players time to change their powers and build characters under the operating conditions of the game, not have to guess what might irk the DM's sense of realism or fairness this week. Anything else would bother me as both a DM and player - if anything I'd rather see the DM being the player's advocate, helping them to have the cool moments, not a policeman blocking them.

nor anyone else in this thread is the final arbiter on what the rules mean.

WotC has a lot of hands that stuff passes through, freelancers, designers, developers, editors, etc. The rules that get published are often different from the original intent, and often have problems that then get directed towards customer service, R&D, errata... and the errata process is often slow and hen picks which it attacks.

I don't see a lot of people having trouble figuring out what dead means, so I don't see Dead being errata-ed on to the condition page or glossary any time soon, or a sentence under Healing that you can't heal the dead. But who knows, maybe someday.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

... Glancing over the discussion there's also some differences here - I mean, I was happy to treat this thread with complete tongue in cheek until somehow it was decided that exception design and DM interpretation meant that you can't prone oozes, push primordials, or anything at all the DM feels like. I object entirely to that theory...

Ay, there's the rub...

I and I suspect a few others on these boards are stout defenders of Rule 0. This is not to say that a DM who is arbitrary and capricious in his or her rulings deserves anything less than a player walk-out, but I have, and will continue to, rule that oozes can't be knocked prone, insubstantial creatures cannot be forced to move by Strength attacks, and that bloodied and dying are mutually exclusive states of being. And "anything at all I feel like" at the time. "But the rules say I can/don't say I can't..." is the whine of the player who is quickly shown the door in my game. Oddly, I still happen to have a great bunch of players show up at my place every week for more of my arbitrary and capricious rulings...

As this is a rules forum, I concur with your RAW interpretation of the bloodied vs. dying rule within an exception-based design paradigm.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[mach1.9pants]

In the spirit of the OP, I found this under opportunity actions: "If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying." This seems to imply that once you are dead you still cannot take any actions, even if you have been healed and are no longer dying/ have positive HPs but are still dead.

Obviously it doesn't answer your original 'can you heal the dead' question but it means that, if you do, you won't be able to do much!

 

[Regicide]

In the spirit of the OP, I found this under opportunity actions: "If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying." This seems to imply that once you are dead you still cannot take any actions, even if you have been healed and are no longer dying/ have positive HPs but are still dead.

It would also imply that you can't take actions while dying making Deathless Frenzy frenzied berserker utility power pretty useless. Likewise Deny Death, Last Stand and Oath of the Final Strike.

 

[Kolvin]

You can't heal objects. Aren't dead character objects with the special property that they can be raised from the dead?

Cuz last time I checked a dead body had all the other properties of an object.

 

[N0Man]

It would also imply that you can't take actions while dying making Deathless Frenzy frenzied berserker utility power pretty useless. Likewise Deny Death, Last Stand and Oath of the Final Strike.

Not at all. *This*, friends, is what is truly meant by an exception based system.

Being unable to take actions is not a direct result of dying, but an indirect one. When you are dying, the rule says you are "unconscious", though technically doesn't actually state you cannot perform actions.

It is the state of "unconscious", which is invoked by "dying" that prevents you from performing actions.

Normally players cannot perform actions when unconscious or dying. These powers that you mentioned create an exception to these rules, which is truly what is meant by exceptions-based.

The rules tell you what you can do. Sometimes they even tell you what you must do, can't do, or conditions that allow or prevent you from an action. All of this creates a framework of general rules and methods for resolving actions that the game usually follows. When there is an exception, the rules tell you that. Sometimes you might even have an exception of an exception.

I feel like some of us here are interpreting exception-based as meaning that players can do anything they can imagine or desire, and it's up to the rules to create an exception to state they cannot. This isn't "exception-based design".

 

[Regicide]

Not at all. *This*, friends, is what is truly meant by an exception based system.

No, it's not. No exception is made. This is an example of a poorly written system.

Being unable to take actions is not a direct result of dying, but an indirect one. When you are dying, the rule says you are "unconscious", though technically doesn't actually state you cannot perform actions.

You're assuming the quoted OA rules above take the inability to do action from being unconsciousness. I'd agree, but that's not how the rule is written or how it works. I'd argue that instead of saying "dying" it SHOULD say "unconscious" or better yet "may not" instead of "not" but it doesn't. Hence, poorly written.

Normally players cannot perform actions when unconscious or dying. These powers that you mentioned create an exception to these rules, which is truly what is meant by exceptions-based.

That means it's an exeption, not that it's exception based. Also pretty much all rule systems beyond tic-tac-toe are "exception based" so you're really saying nothing. For instance 3E called powers spells or martial powers, but feats were feats, classes were classes etc. All d20 games have similar structure. Most RPGs have much in common with them. Creating a general, simple rule, then makeing exeptions to them is just the easist way to do things and how pretty much everything has been done. Anyway.

I haven't looked at the rules that closely but it would seem that some of these powers break the rules, as to actually use them you're doing so while at 0 HP and unconcious, but it doesn't say you can do it "in exception" to the normal rules on when you can use a power. But whatever.