Can A Dominated Creature Make a Save Against Magic Circle Against Evil?

[Vegepygmy]

Question #1: Does B have the option of making a save to ignore the effects of the spell?

No.

Question #2: If B does have the option of making a save, can a dominate force B to make a save?

Yes.

Though I seem to be in a minority here, I don't see the argument for #1 that B doesn't even get a choice in making the save. The spell reads that anyone within 10' is affected by a PrE. PfE allows a save.

Silence allows a save, and affects anyone within 20 feet of the target. Does B get to make a save against A's silence spell?

 

[brehobit]

No.
Yes.
Silence allows a save, and affects anyone within 20 feet of the target. Does B get to make a save against A's silence spell?

OK, did a lot of reading. I think the definition of an emanation would give everyone a save (it is just a burst with a duration and bursts give everyone saves) but the silence thing makes me think the authors intended emanations to be different somehow. If you read the silence description it is very unclear who gets a save (it actually never says anything specifically about the target!), but the intent appears to be that only the target gets a save (if for no other reason than that was what happened in pervious editions). Now spell resistance is less clear. A lot less clear. Look at antilife shell as an example where it appears as if the intent is that those (trying to) enter the emanation are get SR but it isn't clearly stated. Further, SR generally applies as soon as you contact the effect.

All told some wording help is needed. I'd still give the save on the basis of MCaE being described as providing the effects of PfE and PfE giving a save. But I'm certainly unclear on the author's intent.

Would you grant an SR check to someone entering a MCaE? How about silence? Antilife shell?

Mark

 

[airwalkrr]

...

edit: Presuming magic circle allowed a saving throw for a creature moving into its area to resist the protection against domination, which it doesn't.

Ok, I'll buy that provided one thing. Prove to me that magic circle doesn't allow a saving throw for a creature moving into its area. The spell allows a saving throw, and normally, any time an area effect lists a saving throw, any creature within the area gets to make a save. I don't see anything within the magic circle description that contradicts that, but I might be missing something.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Ok, I'll buy that provided one thing. Prove to me that magic circle doesn't allow a saving throw for a creature moving into its area. The spell allows a saving throw, and normally, any time an area effect lists a saving throw, any creature within the area gets to make a save. I don't see anything within the magic circle description that contradicts that, but I might be missing something.

I think I found the answer. However, it may not be the one you might expect. Magic circle has a range of "touch" and an area of "10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature." Although a debated point itself, most people will agree that a targeted spell is one with a Target line. This spell does not have that, so it is not Targeted. It does, however, have a saving throw as you've said: "Will negates (harmless)." Let's look up "(harmless)":

(harmless)
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.

A targeted creature can attempt a saving throw. Lemma 1: By simple logical negation, that implies that non-targeted creatures cannot. We've already shown that this spell has no targeted creatures, and therefore no one gets a save.

That can't be right because it would assume a glaring error in the book. Instead, it makes more sense to reconsider the idea of what is targeted. The closest approximation of a target in this example (based on the spell stat block) is the creature touched. Lemma 2: That means that only the creature touched gets a save, if he desires.

Should you decide, however, that Lemma 2 is false, the only alternate conclusion is that everyone inside the magic circle is a target. I don't think that's correct, however, because targeting has a few other quirks not readily handled by this. For instance, if someone's invisible, are they or are they not 'targeted' by the magic circle? To target something, you must generally see them. The targeting of the creature touched is inherently handled, so there are no other confusing situations with that interpretation. This lends credence to the interpretation that only the person touched gets a save.

Admittedly, this is a very confusing scenario. Please let me know if this makes sense, or not.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Please let me know if this makes sense, or not.

You're spot on.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Admittedly, this is a very confusing scenario. Please let me know if this makes sense, or not.

I'm buying this Consider it yoined to shut a player of mine up ^^