Can a Large creature weild a Tower shield?

[Numion]

I have the image in my head of giants using medium-sized chain shirts because they shouldn't be douple-penalized because of size.

Quite disturbing thought, actually

 

[reapersaurus]

I have an image in my head of a cloud giant using a giant-sized frying pan as a "tower shield" against a medium-size PC.

OK - I've read your post multiple times, and I really don't see what way you're leaning with this.

It seems kinda clear to me that IF a cloud giant was using a large enough "frying pan", it certainly would work as a tower shield.

It's all about the relative size.

Here's a visual:
You two are saying (with AFAIK no rules basis) that for a cloud giant to get +2 to his AC vs melee attacks to him from 5-ft tall opponents, he has to have a shield that is 10 ft tall?
(cloud giants are huge; quadruple size of an estimated 2.5 ft-wide large shield)

This Large shield for him is way bigger than the medium sized opponent's entire body+reach is.

I understand that armor is more expensive for larger creatures, but this idea strains my believability of combat.
Does it yours?
Are there any examples of Huge creatures using shields in the MM?

 

[Vaxalon]

.... ... this idea strains my believability of combat. Does it yours?

No. Clearly.

 

[merc]

you're double-dipping with the penalties there then.

The Large guy already gets a minus to AC because of size.
The small guy already gets a bonus to hit because he's smaller.

Since the small guy is shorter, and the Tower shield is just as large as it is when weilded by a medium size guy, why would the tower shield provide any less benefit just because the weilder is Large?
It blocks the smaller guy just as well - it's not like a tower shield is tiny on a large creature - there's only so much facing a medium creature has - he can't threaten against a Large creature's entire body at once.
It should be just as easy to interpose the Tower shield between the medium (or small) combatant and a Large shield-holder.

The question is (again) :
shouldn't it be easier for a Large creature to lug around a Tower shield (which is quite big for a medium sized guy)?

Sure, it would be easier for a Large creature to wield a medium Tower Shield, but they wouldn't be able to use it to its full benefit. The concept behind the Tower Shield is that a person can hide behind it for cover, not necesarily because it is interposed between two combatants.

The description describes it as basically a portable wall, which I think is a good way to think about it. It wouldn't make sense that a large creature could fit completely behind a medium Tower Shield, so they would never be able to get full cover. A small Large creature (about 8ft tall) might be able to get 3/4 or 9/10 cover from a Medium Tower Shield, but a large Large creature (16ft) probably couldn't get more than 1/4 cover if they tried. Since the cover from a Tower Shield isn't a fixed number, use your best judgement for how much it can cover.

Now, if the Tower Shield were big enough, it might be able to block an oppenent who was attacking, even if it didn't provide full cover. Think of the Tower Shield as a wall - if the opponent wouldn't be able to hit you around a wall of the same size, they shouldn't be able to hit you behind the Tower Shield. But there is no way that Medium Tower Shields are 5ft wide (the size you'd need to block a medium sized creature's face).

Also remember that the scaling the shield, like Vaxalon suggested, doesn't just raise the price - it raises the size of the shield so that it functions for large creatures the same as it does for medium creatures.

 

[reapersaurus]

hmm.. i never thought about this before, but unless I'm mistaken, the 3E rules are quite messed up for Larger creatures.

Follow with me:

If we start with a Tower Shield that is around 6' tall x 3' wide (which seems on the smaller side to me, but it's an estimate), it sizes up to 12' x 6' for Large creatures and 24' x 12' for Huge creatures, right?

This is assuming that what you guys say is right, that the shields just have to keep getting proportionally bigger to provide the same benefit for Larger creatures.

So what do the rules say about a Huge creature using a Tower Shield of this size?
As written, do they allow you to 5' step around it?
Because as demonstrated, this shield can not be stepped around (12' wide).

2 other aspects:
a) If the Huge Cloud Giant just plops down his Tower shield width wise, it is 24' wide and 12' high.
Couldn't he hit people with his sword over the top? What could the melee-types do to hit him?

b) Give this Cloud Giant one level of Sorcerer, and he fires up a Shield spell.
This invisible Shield MUST be the same size proportionally to provide cover, so all he has to do is place the Shield between he and his Medium-sized melee attackers and they just keep bonking into it. There's no way they can get around it?

Thoughts?

(except Vaxalon, who doesn't see any problem)

 

[Thanee]

Well b) doesn't cause any problems, since the shield spell doesn't define any size and does not need to. In fact, the size of the invisible shield is completely irrelevant.

On the other stuff... I sure see where you are coming from, but that's just not handled properly in the rules.

Either you follow the rules or logic (aka house rules) - both are acceptable ways to handle a given situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[merc]

Follow with me:

If we start with a Tower Shield that is around 6' tall x 3' wide (which seems on the smaller side to me, but it's an estimate), it sizes up to 12' x 6' for Large creatures and 24' x 12' for Huge creatures, right?

This is assuming that what you guys say is right, that the shields just have to keep getting proportionally bigger to provide the same benefit for Larger creatures.

I'm not exactly sure what the exact proportions would be because each size category has such big ranges. I mean, the difference between a 16ft tall and a 32ft tall creature is enormous (both are Huge). So I would say use your best guess in each situation. Your estimated sizes could be right on for a lot of cases, it's just a hard thing to set in stone.

2 other aspects:
a) If the Huge Cloud Giant just plops down his Tower shield width wise, it is 24' wide and 12' high.
Couldn't he hit people with his sword over the top? What could the melee-types do to hit him?

Yeah, I would think that would be a great strategy for that Giant to use. It's similar to knocking down a tree in front of himself, or dropping some 5ft boulders on the ground to make movement for smaller creatures more difficult. I think that the rules get messed up because of the sheer size differences. A Huge creature fighting a Medium creature is like the equivalent of me fighting a cat. I could put a couch cushion between us, and they would have to walk around. I could take a laundry basket (a normal sized object for me) and completely cover up the cat with it. Situations like this are hard to make rules for in any kind of brief manner. It also shows how intelligent large creatures could be tremendously difficult opponents.

b) Give this Cloud Giant one level of Sorcerer, and he fires up a Shield spell.
This invisible Shield MUST be the same size proportionally to provide cover, so all he has to do is place the Shield between he and his Medium-sized melee attackers and they just keep bonking into it. There's no way they can get around it?

I can't really address this Shield spell one, because I'm not sure if the spell makes an actual object of force (solid) or if it is just a term they used to describe the magical features of it.

 

[IanB]

A Large creature wouldn't get the full benefit out of a tower shield sized for a medium creature. Tower shields grant cover; cover bonuses are based on how much of the creature is covered, not on the size of the covering object.

For the problem of 5' stepping around a scaled-up tower shield, the easiest solution is just to consider that it is the same size as the face of the monster - so if you have a 10x10 monster, the shield would cover one 10' side of it. You could 5' adjust around it diagonally. For a 15x15' monster, you wouldn't be able to adjust around it if you were in the middle square, but that seems reasonable to me.

 

[Vaxalon]

Here is the five-foot step-aside analysis for huge creatures:

H=hero
G=Giant
S=really big shield


+++++
++H++
++SS+< -this line is not five feet, it just shows where the shield is
++GG+
++GG+
+++++

Our hero takes his five foot step...

+++++
+++++
++SS+< -this line is not five feet, it just shows where the shield is
+HGG+
++GG+
+++++

...and he's around the shield.

This works no matter where the shield is, and no matter where the hero is.

 

[reapersaurus]

Nice diagram, Vaxalon.
That is a good illustration of how a 10 foot wide shield could be side-stepped.

(of course, doesn't a Larger creature have reach?
How would that change the placement of the shield-interposing?)

But it still shows exactly how a 15-foot-wide shield would be very good for Huge creatures. (I believe it would be quite easy for a Huge creature to carry a 15' wide by 10' tall shield - that's only 4' wide x 2.5 ' high for a human)

And opens up the question: how would a medium sized creature attack?