Can a Large creature weild a Tower shield?

[IanB]

A

And opens up the question: how would a medium sized creature attack?

Simple. The character walks around it. Cover prevents attacks of opportunity. Cover is a two-way street - if you're blocking me with a tower shield, you're also blocking your ability to hit me.

 

[KarinsDad]

Cover is a two-way street - if you're blocking me with a tower shield, you're also blocking your ability to hit me.

Not necessarily for creatures of differing sizes with reach, especially creatures 2 or more sizes larger.

The 12 foot wall is a good example. The Fighter cannot reach the Giant (100% cover vs. melee weapons unless they are reach weapons), the Giant can cream the Fighter.

The Fighter would still get a cover bonus, but it would not be 100% if the Giant is on the other side of the wall (and is 18 feet tall or so) since the Giant can just bash his club over the wall.

I would allow the Fighter to Ready an Action, though, to counterattack when the Giant attacks. If he does this, he gets even less cover bonus, but then again, so does the Giant.

Or, the Fighter could walk away, but those rocks are nasty too. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Vaxalon]

Yes, necessarily, Karinsdad.

It's part of the tower shield rules that whatever cover benefit you get from hiding behind it is also bestowed on people on the other side of the shield.

The fighter just crouches low and close to the wall. There are no rules in the tower shield that says that you can strike around it at someone who has 100% cover.

Now if the medium-sized fighter was the one with the tower shield, I'd say you're right. The tower shield doesn't help against blows coming from above. But a tower shield big enough to give cover to a huge giant is by definition too tall for him to strike over, or else a medium-sized fighter would be able to strike over a tower shield at small opponnents, and he can't do that.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

*AHEM*

Now really, what giant would want to use a shield when he can get an impressive 1.5xStr bonus to damage by wielding his weapon two-handed?

 

[merc]

It's part of the tower shield rules that whatever cover benefit you get from hiding behind it is also bestowed on people on the other side of the shield.

Hmm, it doesn't say anything about this in the description of the tower shield, nor in the section on cover. In fact in the Cover section (pg 132 PHB) it gives an example where cover given by the same wall would be different for different sized creatures.

Originally posted by Vaxalon The fighter just crouches low and close to the wall. There are no rules in the tower shield that says that you can strike around it at someone who has 100% cover.

Well, actually there is. You can't possibly be facing a person in DnD combat, with a tower shield between you, and "strike around it". That would be the equivelent of striking the person on the side of their face-square (for lack of a better term). Opponents can only be struck through the plane between between them, with the exception of creatures with strange reaches. The tower shield blocks the plane of attack. You can step around the shield, but the wielder could always move it to keep it between you.

Originally posted by Vaxalon Now if the medium-sized fighter was the one with the tower shield, I'd say you're right. The tower shield doesn't help against blows coming from above. But a tower shield big enough to give cover to a huge giant is by definition too tall for him to strike over, or else a medium-sized fighter would be able to strike over a tower shield at small opponents, and he can't do that.

I think the confusion here comes from the size of the shield that KarinsDad was talking about. The shield was 12ft tall, and the giant was 18ft tall. Plenty of room for the giant to reach over it. That shield would still give the giant more cover than it would give the opponent. If a 6ft tall medium creature had a 4ft tall tower shield (the same porportion), they could strike over it as well.


That Cover section I refered to (pg 132 PHB): "Cover gives examples of various situations that usually produce certain degrees of cover. These examples might not hold true in exceptional circumstances. For example, a 3-foot wall might provide a human one-half cover in melee against kobolds, who have a hard time striking a human's upper body, but the same wall might grant a human no cover in melee against a giant."

I think that shows the subjectiveness that cover has, especially with creatures of different size categories.

 

[Vaxalon]

I think the confusion here comes from the size of the shield that KarinsDad was talking about. The shield was 12ft tall, and the giant was 18ft tall. Plenty of room for the giant to reach over it. That shield would still give the giant more cover than it would give the opponent. If a 6ft tall medium creature had a 4ft tall tower shield (the same porportion), they could strike over it as well.

Right, because the two shields you are mentioning here (the 12 foot shield for th e 18 foot giant, and the 4 foot shield for the 6 foot human) aren't tower shields. They're not big enough. They should be more like 16 feet and 5.5 feet. These are REALLY big shields, the size of shields that certain African tribes used to build, designed more for protection against missile fire than for melee.

 

[Vaxalon]

Originally posted by merc
You can step around the shield, but the wielder could always move it to keep it between you.

No, he can't, because he can only move it on his turn.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, necessarily, Karinsdad.

It's part of the tower shield rules that whatever cover benefit you get from hiding behind it is also bestowed on people on the other side of the shield.

The point is that cover is cover.

It matters not if the source is a wall, a tree, a rock, or a tower shield.

In the example I gave, the Giant had 100% cover from the Man with non-reach melee weapons since the Man could not reach above the top of the wall and could not reach through the wall and for no other reason.

The Man, on the other hand, had less cover since the Giant could attack from above, hence, the wall might give the Man 50% cover. The Giant is not attacking from the front, but from above.

This is really no different than a Man across a 5 foot wide pit where the Giant can reach the Man, but the Man cannot reach the Giant with non-reach melee weapons except the Man has 0% cover in this case. The Giant also has 0% cover, but it’s basically the same as if he had 100% cover since the Man cannot reach him.

The cover rules are explicitly left to DM discretion due to the wide variety of possible cover situations. I just happened to mention one where the way we normally think of Tower Shield cover does not necessarily hold.

DND cover rules, just like any other DND rule, should not be a straight jacket against common sense.

 

[reapersaurus]

DND cover rules, just like any other DND rule, should not be a straight jacket against common sense.

well said, KD.

I just noticed something in the armor sidebar on page 105:

Armor for Tiny or smaller creatures costs half as much...provides half as much protection, and weighs 1/10th or less as much.

By the corollary, shouldn't armor for a Large creature provide twice as much protection?

So they ARE saying that a Large shield weilded by a Large creature provides a +4 bonus?

 

[Wolf72]

okay tiny and smaller is 1/2 protection ... I think large would have the same protection though, while huge would gain 2x protection ... (not according to MM though) ...

dim/fin/tiny are 1/2
small/med/large are normal
hug/garg/col should be 2x

um okay, go back to your intelligent discussion! didn't mean to interrupt