Can a monk with natural weapons use them in a flurry?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think I understand now. You were using another FEAT and arguing the other side, to show it cannot be done.

More or less, yah.

If you must give up your regular attacks, what are they arguing can be left over?

Nonregular attacks - from Haste, TWF, Cleave, secondary natural weapons, weapons of speed, etc.

How come you are using WHIRLWIND to argue about flurry?

Because they are both modifiers of the Full Attack action which place certain limitations upon that action while they are in use.

 

[Sil]

Nonregular attacks - from Haste, TWF, Cleave, secondary natural weapons, weapons of speed

But WHIRLWIND is a full round action, no? What can be left over in a full round action?

EDIT
regular attacks are the only thing replaced. So anything besides regular attacks you have left you can use. But that is not right. Although the only thing replaced are regular attacks, use of the feat denies "any extra attack from any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

 

[ThirdWizard]

But WHIRLWIND is a full round action, no? What can be left over in a full round action?

Isn't flurry a full round action (full attack action)? Isn't that the point Patryn is making?

 

[Alzrius]

Isn't flurry a full round action (full attack action)? Isn't that the point Patryn is making?

I think so. The counterpoint is that making any other kind of full attack action doesn't prohibit you from then making off-hand attacks, so neither should a flurry. The flurry ends once your "normal" attack sequence ends, and you can then make off-hand attacks with non-monk weapons. I think this makes sense, since the benefit of the increased number of attacks is balanced by the ever-stacking penalties. Likewise, making a full attack action doesn't necessarily mean your turn is done (for example, you can still make free actions).

Whirlwind Attack is different (IMHO) since it specifically calls out giving up "regular" attacks.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Flurry prevents you from using non-monk weapons or uarmed strikes, however.

Rapid Shot, as an example, does not limit you to using a ranged attack, so you can benefit from a natural attack against an adjacent opponent after firing off everything you could from rapid shot. (For example, a tail attack.) But it is still part of your full attack action.

Big difference, I think. Flurry is a full attack action. You can't do something after a full attack action as part of a full attack action!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But WHIRLWIND is a full round action, no? What can be left over in a full round action?

No, Whirlwind is a modifier on the Full Attack action, which is a full-round action. Flurry of Blows is a modifier on the Full Attack action, which is a full-round action.

Ask the same question of those who say you can use natural weapons alongside a flurry, but not alongside a WWA.

And as for what can be left over, well, free actions, of course.

 

[Alzrius]

Flurry prevents you from using non-monk weapons or uarmed strikes, however.

As part of the flurry, yes. But that's over when you make the listed number of attacks on the Monk table.

Rapid Shot, as an example, does not limit you to using a ranged attack, so you can benefit from a natural attack against an adjacent opponent after firing off everything you could from rapid shot. (For example, a tail attack.) But it is still part of your full attack action.

Big difference, I think. Flurry is a full attack action. You can't do something after a full attack action as part of a full attack action!

By that logic, making your standard number of iterative attacks every round is a full round action, and you can't take additional attacks afterwards with your off-hand.

 

[ThirdWizard]

As part of the flurry, yes. But that's over when you make the listed number of attacks on the Monk table.

By that logic, making your standard number of iterative attacks every round is a full round action, and you can't take additional attacks afterwards with your off-hand.

The full attack action isn't over. Lets take a fighter 6 who has two attacks and TWF and is holding two swords. He takes his first attack and doesn't use the TWF rules. He has taken his first attack with no penalty. After that he can still complete his full attack by taking his second iterative attack. Can he attack with his off hand? No. Why? He didn't take the TWF penalty, so he can't. If he had taken the penalty, he could have taken the third attack. His full attack action must end there.

Lets take the monk flurrying. He takes his flurry attack. He has now limited himself during his full attack action. He is still in his full attack action when he has completed his final flurry attack, but he cannot choose to now use an attack limited by flurry of blows because that would invalidate the flurry that he has already performed. He is stuck with his decision and since he is unable to make any more attacks, his full attack action must end.

You cannot end your full attack action then decide to take another attack. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Alzrius]

The full attack action isn't over. Lets take a fighter 6 who has two attacks and TWF and is holding two swords. He takes his first attack and doesn't use the TWF rules. He has taken his first attack with no penalty. After that he can still complete his full attack by taking his second iterative attack. Can he attack with his off hand? No. Why? He didn't take the TWF penalty, so he can't. If he had taken the penalty, he could have taken the third attack. His full attack action must end there.

And I think that the above example also applies to a flurrying monk.

Lets take the monk flurrying. He takes his flurry attack. He has now limited himself during his full attack action.

Only in the sense that he hasn't applied any penalties for using TWF, or a natural secondary attack, or Rapid Shot, or what have you. There is no other limit. For a monk with natural weapons, he still has that option open, since they don't penalize primary attacks.

He is still in his full attack action when he has completed his final flurry attack, but he cannot choose to now use an attack limited by flurry of blows because that would invalidate the flurry that he has already performed. He is stuck with his decision and since he is unable to make any more attacks, his full attack action must end.

There is nothing to support this claim. The monk is still in his full attack action - only the flurry part has ended. Check out Table 3-10 in the PHB. The "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus" column there indicates the attacks that are part of the flurry - any other attacks a monk may make that round are not part of the flurry, and thus not subject to its prohibitions on weapons (though the penalty applies, as always). You're making a distinction where none exists. Nothing says that a further attack "invalidates" the flurry, or that he can't make any other attacks.

In fact, you contradicted yourself above: "the flurry he has already performed", as you put it, means that the flurry is now over, which means that the prohibition on non-monk weapons is also over, so there's no reason he can't make off-hand or secondary attacks.

You cannot end your full attack action then decide to take another attack. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Had the full attack action ended, I would agree, but it hasn't so I don't.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Hmm given me a few things to think about.