Can a monk with natural weapons use them in a flurry?

[Klaus]

I opted to avoid all natural attacks x flurry of blows/monk unarmed attacks by ruling it thusly:

If you have a natural attack that deals slashing or piercing damage, you can opt to have your unarmed attacks deal that type of damage when you attack (as a free action). If you opt for any type of damage other than bludgeoning, you can't deal nonlethal damage with that attack.

The above also applies to gauntlets and spiked gauntlets. You do your regular unarmed damage, but you can choose to do the type of damage indicated for the weapon. And if your gauntlets are made of a special material, your unarmed strikes that apply (i.e. hands for gauntlets, feet for boots, head butt for helmets) bypass material-based DR.

 

[Sil]

No, Whirlwind is a modifier on the Full Attack action, which is a full-round action. Flurry of Blows is a modifier on the Full Attack action, which is a full-round action.

Ask the same question of those who say you can use natural weapons alongside a flurry, but not alongside a WWA.

And as for what can be left over, well, free actions, of course.

But i made an error. It does not matter what is left over, because the modifier to the full round action has the effect of banning THINGS that create additional attacks. The modifier (WWA) does not limit its restriction in this regard, so as long at the full attack is operating, the exclusion is in effect.
Right?

 

[Alzrius]

Just for fun, let's see how many attacks we can get our flurrying monk with secondary weapons to have.

Let's take a Lizardfolk Monk 16. He's still got his Str of 13, but his Dex is 19 (somehow). He already has the Multiattack feat from his two racial hit dice, and the other six feats he has are Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. He's also under a haste effect. He's got a total of 18 hit dice, a CR of 17, and is the equivalent of a 19th-level PC. So, let's go through the attacks he'd get:

First, he'd flurry with his unarmed strikes at +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 (BAB +12 from Monk levels, +1 racial hit dice BAB, +1 haste, +1 Strength, -2 for two-weapon fighting with a light off-hand weapon, -2 Rapid Shot penalty).

Next, he'd get his off-hand attacks at +11/+6/+1 (same bonuses and penalties as the flurry for the first attack, the second attack is -5 from ITWF, and the last one is at -10 from the first attack due to GTWF).

Next he'd make his attack for being under a haste effect, making an unarmed monk attack at +11 (same bonuses and penalties as the flurry)

Next, he'd get two claws at +9 each, and a bite attack at +9 (same bonuses and penalties as the flurrying, but with an additional -2 penalty for being secondary attacks; the Multiattack makes it -2 instead of -5; the claws are treated here as secondary natural weapons).

Finally, he takes a 5 ft. step back from his opponent, uses Quick Draw to draw a dagger and throw it at him (thanks to Rapid Shot) at +15 (BAB +12 from Monk levels, +1 racial hit dice BAB, +1 haste, +1 Point Blank Shot, +4 Dex, -2 for two-weapon fighting with a light off-hand weapon, -2 Rapid Shot penalty).

Altogether, he's making 13 attacks every round!

 

[Sil]

Want to try it with an incarnate construct of a anthropomorthic giant octopus?

 

[Alzrius]

Want to try it with an incarnate construct of a anthropomorthic giant octopus?

Heck with that, let's just try it with an awakened giant squid. Let's see now...give him 21 Monk levels so he can get the seven feats the lizardfolk above has, making him a 33 hit dice creature (CR 30). His total BAB would be +15 at 20 hit dice, and +7 epic BAB (that doesn't add iterative attacks). Assuming the same arrangement as the lizardfolk above, he'd thus get five flurry attacks, three off-hand attacks, one haste attack, a whopping eleven secondary natural attacks, and one move-back-and-toss-a-ranged-weapon attack. The grand total: 21 attacks! Our boy Sid the Squid here is the devastator of the oceans!

 

[Rkhet]

Why go epic at all? Have someone cast Polymorph on a regular monk and turn him into a twelve-headed hydra.

Heh. Or go master transmogrifist on top of that and take up the natural weapons of an octopus, too.

 

[Diirk]

I think so. The counterpoint is that making any other kind of full attack action doesn't prohibit you from then making off-hand attacks, so neither should a flurry. The flurry ends once your "normal" attack sequence ends, and you can then make off-hand attacks with non-monk weapons. I think this makes sense, since the benefit of the increased number of attacks is balanced by the ever-stacking penalties. Likewise, making a full attack action doesn't necessarily mean your turn is done (for example, you can still make free actions).

Whirlwind Attack is different (IMHO) since it specifically calls out giving up "regular" attacks.

Flurry doesn't prohibit you from making off-hand attacks, it just prohibits you from using nonmonk weapons. You can quite happily make offhand attacks with monk weapons, however. What the 'flurry and then attack some more after my flurry ended' crowd is saying is that its your character makes all his mainhand attacks, and then makes all his offhand attacks afterwards. Frankly this doesn't make sense to me, the whole point of two weapon fighting is to attack with both hands simultaneously...

Whirlwind attack isn't any different at all. Altho it specifically states you give up your regular attacks, flurry specifically states you give up your nonmonk attacks, and look how much people pay attention to that...

 

[Alzrius]

Flurry doesn't prohibit you from making off-hand attacks, it just prohibits you from using nonmonk weapons.

Only during the flurry, not after it.

You can quite happily make offhand attacks with monk weapons, however. What the 'flurry and then attack some more after my flurry ended' crowd is saying is that its your character makes all his mainhand attacks, and then makes all his offhand attacks afterwards. Frankly this doesn't make sense to me, the whole point of two weapon fighting is to attack with both hands simultaneously...

"Mainhand attacks"? You seem to be neglecting that monk's don't need to use their hands to attack at all. From the SRD:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

Even if a monk had a monk weapon in each hand, he still couldn't use them both during a flurry, since that's two-weapon fighting (though he could take the appropriate penalties and attack with it afterwards).

Whirlwind attack isn't any different at all. Altho it specifically states you give up your regular attacks, flurry specifically states you give up your nonmonk attacks, and look how much people pay attention to that...

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Which part of this "specifically states" that a monk flurrying "gives up nonmonk attacks"?

 

[Thanee]

Even if a monk had a monk weapon in each hand, he still couldn't use them both during a flurry, since that's two-weapon fighting (though he could take the appropriate penalties and attack with it afterwards).

He could use them interchangably in the flurry, also interchangably with unarmed attacks, mixed as he sees fit.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Alzrius]

He could use them interchangably in the flurry, also interchangably with unarmed attacks, mixed as he sees fit.

I admit I wasn't sure about that...I don't, at this point, see any reason for or against either arguement (that a monk with a monk weapon in each hand could use both in a flurry).