Can a swarm be grabbed?

The powers system seems like a way of "dumbing down" D&D. With the powers system you have a select amount of abilities so that players don't have to worry about a dozen different modifiers that crop up when using said powers multiple times.

I`m not necessarily a fan as I would love to be able to use martial dailies more than once a day and honestly the powers system was the reason I avoided 4e like the plague when it came out.

I'm used to it now and when I`m playing a non-martial class I don't mind. Although I do find myself longing for Brute Strike after it's spent.
I really don't get this mentality at all. I suppose 4e casters have fewer interesting options than they did in 3e, but the powers system has definitely "smartened up" a whole slew of classes that, in all previous editions, boiled down to either:
"I hit it 'til it's not a problem anymore."
OR
"I get behind it then hit it 'til it's not a problem anymore."

To say nothing of actually making movement relevant (and beneficial!) in combat. Full attack actions were as dumbed down as dumb can get. To say nothing about letting clerics be more than heal-bots. And more interesting monsters for DMs to play.

I'll take that kind of tactical improvement across the board over losing spell memorization & buff-scry-port any day of the week. I've been playing since AD&D and I can say with certainty that 4e is the smartest D&D I've played.

Getting (more) back on topic, I think it's pretty obvious at this point that 4e really doesn't give a crap about simulationists. It has not once set out to pretend that it was a game for simulationists, and every day that passes it shocks me more and more when simulationists are perplexed when the game allows things they can't wrap their heads around.

Part of the other (non-tactical) reason why 4e is the smartest D&D is that it places so much greater impetus on the player to drive the narrative of their character. Players are essentially given the charge of figuring out exactly how their character works within the context of the game world. The books don't have to explain it, the designers don't have to explain it, DM's don't have to explain it. It's all on the player. If you need to know why your new warlord can only ever seem to try to pull a Lead the Attack* roughly once per day, then you're the one who has to figure out the reason why that is (or, if you can, employ the MST3K Mantra). If you can't figure it out, and that bugs you, then martial classes aren't for you. Simple as pie.


*I was going to just say "daily power" but let's be honest with ourselves here
 

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What I meant by dumbing down was that they used the powers system instead of something along the lines of what Odhanan was suggesting with the different modifiers for multiple uses of powers.

I completely agree that it is the smartest edition yet, I merely chose poor wording. Sorry to have obviously struck a cord there.
 

Ah well. See now Tony, I feel like really I must be completely failing at explaining my points, because your entire post reads to me like you either completely misunderstand what I'm saying, or willfully miscontrue them to suit whatever argument you want to have (like for example this weird notion that I have something against martial classes.)
I can see how it would seem that way. It looks to me like you're making an assumption upon which you're basing your position. I was trying to get you to re-examine that assumption, or at least, to see what your argument would be like without it. I'm not saying you hate martial classes - you might /really/ like them - but you do appear to be holding them to a different standard than everything else.

Like I said, if you can make your point without using a martial class or power as an example, I'd be delighted to hear it. (And I'd have no way to twist or willfully misconstrue your argument into you somehow not liking the martial archetypes, would I?) If you can't, you might want to give a little thought as to why.
 

If the fiction means nothing in your game, you might as well be playing a board game.

If you can fictionally justify "grabbing" or "restraining" something, then do it. Otherwise, no.
 

I really don't get this mentality at all. I suppose 4e casters have fewer interesting options than they did in 3e, but the powers system has definitely "smartened up" a whole slew of classes that, in all previous editions, boiled down to either:
"I hit it 'til it's not a problem anymore."
OR
"I get behind it then hit it 'til it's not a problem anymore."

To say nothing of actually making movement relevant (and beneficial!) in combat. Full attack actions were as dumbed down as dumb can get. To say nothing about letting clerics be more than heal-bots. And more interesting monsters for DMs to play.

I'll take that kind of tactical improvement across the board over losing spell memorization & buff-scry-port any day of the week. I've been playing since AD&D and I can say with certainty that 4e is the smartest D&D I've played.

Well, clerics as heal-bots was more of a problem in AD&D than 3E; in 3E clerics became "buff-bots". In fact, most clerics I've played with used their first rounds buffing *themselves*, and then stepped to the frontline to completely destroy the baddies in melee.

I'm afraid that 4E has emphasized tactical combat a bit too much for my taste; I was never really good at it, and I feel combat in 3E was about as much as I could handle. However, I'm hoping that 'Essentials' downplays this a bit with stances and "simplified" powers, because I would like to try playing and running 4E, but I feel a bit overwhelmed with all that I've seen of the core stuff.

At the moment I'm running and playing PF RPG; I feel it has added a lot of options via talents and feats, but without it all becoming too complex. And very "specialized" combat feats and class variants have made certain archetypes actually viable choices -- for example, for the first time I might actually play a dwarven ranger or a polearm specialist or a sword-and-board fighter. If the 'Essentials' line still feels too complex, I can always keep on playing PF.

Part of the other (non-tactical) reason why 4e is the smartest D&D is that it places so much greater impetus on the player to drive the narrative of their character. Players are essentially given the charge of figuring out exactly how their character works within the context of the game world. The books don't have to explain it, the designers don't have to explain it, DM's don't have to explain it. It's all on the player. If you need to know why your new warlord can only ever seem to try to pull a Lead the Attack* roughly once per day, then you're the one who has to figure out the reason why that is (or, if you can, employ the MST3K Mantra). If you can't figure it out, and that bugs you, then martial classes aren't for you. Simple as pie.

Well, in the end 4E does not give any more narrativistic control to the player than any other edition, because the final say is still on the DM; if the DM thinks a player's description is over the top, it doesn't happen that way. The only exception I can think of are the Skill Challenges, and only if the DM asks the players to describe what and how they're trying to accomplish with each check. I *do* agree with you that it *is* best to give as much narrativistic control to the players as possible, but it's not "hardwired" to the rules in the same way Indie RPGs do it.
 

If the fiction means nothing in your game, you might as well be playing a board game.

If you can fictionally justify "grabbing" or "restraining" something, then do it. Otherwise, no.
I don't think this is true. I mean if my PCs are being attacked by a swarm of sewer rats as they attempt to sneak into the castle to depose the Lich King who has ruled the kingdom for the last 100 years since it grew to power in the Old War when it tricked all of the leaders of the world into giving their kingdoms to it....

It means the fiction means something...and it isn't a board game. On the other hand, I still want the guy playing the Grappler Fighter to have fun for the next hour while we run the combat. Since almost every one of his powers becomes quite a bit more ineffective if he can't grab an enemy, I can imagine it might be kind of frustrating to have all of them fail. So, I'll allow him to grab the swarm and simply abstract it enough that I don't have to describe it.
 

Well, in the end 4E does not give any more narrativistic control to the player than any other edition, because the final say is still on the DM; if the DM thinks a player's description is over the top, it doesn't happen that way. The only exception I can think of are the Skill Challenges, and only if the DM asks the players to describe what and how they're trying to accomplish with each check. I *do* agree with you that it *is* best to give as much narrativistic control to the players as possible, but it's not "hardwired" to the rules in the same way Indie RPGs do it.

I don't really disagree with anything you say up until this point. In fact, I believe in the exact opposite of what you say in terms of skill challenges. Skill challenges are the only times where it's absolutely essential, gameplay-wise, for the DM to carefully adjudicate the players' narrative uses of their skills.

In all other cases, especially in combat, there's really no point gameplay-wise in the DM reining in what their characters are or are not capable of. Obviously, how much srs bznz reasonable combat descriptions are will vary from group to group, but the end result will always be the same regardless: roll for damage and apply effects.

Thus, I disagree with your basic assertions about 4e. As a D&D game (I'll admit I don't have as much experience with other systems), it has, more than any other edition, encouraged players to take creative, narrative control of their characters. And, more importantly more than any other edition, has not encouraged DMs to rein their players in. I can assume other systems will do this better (in fact, at least two that I have played do.) I'm simply asserting that 4e does this particularly well also, as there are far fewer (almost none, really) gameplay reasons for DMs to rein their players in now.
 

I'm afraid that 4E has emphasized tactical combat a bit too much for my taste; I was never really good at it, and I feel combat in 3E was about as much as I could handle. However, I'm hoping that 'Essentials' downplays this a bit with stances and "simplified" powers, because I would like to try playing and running 4E, but I feel a bit overwhelmed with all that I've seen of the core stuff.
3e was more grid-oriented and tactical than prior versions of the game (which you could often run without minis at all), and 4e continued that trend, yes. I don't think Essentials is particularly less tactical. All the movement options remain, the roles are still there, etc. Mostly the classes are a lot easier to create and level-up. The martial classes have slightly fewer in-combat options, in that they lack dailies, but aside from that, have the same call to be tactical in positioning and coordinating their actions.

One thing I don't quite get is the complaint that 4e is somehow more complex than 3e. 3.x was positively nightmarish on towards the end, there, especially if the game was in one of those optimization death-spirals in which the players build uber-characters, the DM responds with uber-monsters, the players respond with broken combos, etc, etc...

Where I've found complexity in 4e isn't on either side of the DM screen, but behind the curtains. The game is simple and easy to run, simple to play. But try to tinker with it, and you suddenly realize what a complex web of choices, interactions, and synergies you have to try to keep from screwing up. Building a new class for instance, is a truely daunting proposition. Even modifying a rule or two can force you to consider dozens of unintended consiquences.

Well, in the end 4E does not give any more narrativistic control to the player than any other edition, because the final say is still on the DM; if the DM thinks a player's description is over the top, it doesn't happen that way.
While the DM can, in theory, override anything ("no, your character has blue eyes, not green!"), there's really no need. Descriptions don't affect mechanics, so how a character describes what he does won't change what he accomplishes. Also, many of the powers imply player control of things outside of what his character does (or even knows about). A daily divine power, for instance, could be expended on a given round not because the player called on it that round, but because he called on it each round, and it was at that moment that the god chose to act through him. Each time a Cleric heals, for instance, it could be a miracle that he has no way of actually causing to happen, he just has to have faith that it will. If you describe your Cleric's powers that way, you're actually making decisions for the God he whorships.

The thing is, you can go that way or not, as it suits you. I've seen groups that really like the 'storytelling' aproach, and couldn't stand D&D really take to 4e, because it leaves them that kind of narrative flexibility. Conversely, I've seen groups for whom D&D has always been as much or more small-scale wargame as RPG, similarly take to 4e for it's emphasis on tactical play.
 

3e was more grid-oriented and tactical than prior versions of the game (which you could often run without minis at all), and 4e continued that trend, yes. I don't think Essentials is particularly less tactical. All the movement options remain, the roles are still there, etc. Mostly the classes are a lot easier to create and level-up. The martial classes have slightly fewer in-combat options, in that they lack dailies, but aside from that, have the same call to be tactical in positioning and coordinating their actions.

One thing I don't quite get is the complaint that 4e is somehow more complex than 3e. 3.x was positively nightmarish on towards the end, there, especially if the game was in one of those optimization death-spirals in which the players build uber-characters, the DM responds with uber-monsters, the players respond with broken combos, etc, etc...

Where I've found complexity in 4e isn't on either side of the DM screen, but behind the curtains. The game is simple and easy to run, simple to play. But try to tinker with it, and you suddenly realize what a complex web of choices, interactions, and synergies you have to try to keep from screwing up. Building a new class for instance, is a truely daunting proposition. Even modifying a rule or two can force you to consider dozens of unintended consiquences.

Oh, I totally agree with 3E high-level play being very, very complex -- however, not so much on the tactical side per se. As you said, it mostly came down to crunching numbers with the wide range of feats and prestige classes, but I didn't see it affecting tactical depth; instead, most optimized PCs were really "one-trick ponies" who relied on the same actions round after round. In 3E, I think the complexity in tactical choices had more to do with spellcasters (and spells in general). For the DM this meant that he had to know what the PC spellcasters were capable of doing and adjust his/her tactics accordingly; likewise, he had to know all the spells and spell-like abilities monsters had at their disposal, which could be a real headache at high levels.

4E has none of that; instead, every player must know his powers inside out, and how these powers interact with other PCs. For example, I might easily mess up by pulling a monster to melee, when I should have actually used a power that would push it so that the wizard could use some close blast power. Or I should have marked a minion that is whittling down the wizard's HPs at an alarming rate . And so on (I think you get my point). Now, this sort of stuff used to be more relevant to spellcasters, but now every PC has to think of the "group synergy" (i.e. "Which of my powers will be most useful to group in this particular situation?") and it can very easily lead to "power paralysis". I've even seen some people badmouthing less tactically-inclined players for playing "stupidly".

For the DM this also means he that he/she must create balanced encounters that challenge the players; although 4E provides a lot of tools for this, not all of us can easily juggle the hazards, terrain effects and "synergy" effects from monster roles and powers. Running a typical 4E combat would be a nightmare for me, because I don't just need to try to use tactics to the best of my ability; I also need to keep track of marks, effects, zones and whatnot. It's just too tactical for me.

I still think 4E does a lot "right"; it's just the heavily emphasized tactical depth that's keeping me away from it. And that is why I hope 'Essentials' product line will introduce less complex combat rules and classes.

Now that PF RPG has introduced a new array of options with APG, I'm starting to feel the same with PF NPCs; there's just so many new choices, and some of them are even "overlapping" (e.g. a feat copies an effect that archetypes X and Y already offer at levels 5 and 9, respectively). The end result is that I don't feel I can manage all the fiddly details, and I wish the designers would have created a separate subsystem for handling NPCs.

While the DM can, in theory, override anything ("no, your character has blue eyes, not green!"), there's really no need. Descriptions don't affect mechanics, so how a character describes what he does won't change what he accomplishes. Also, many of the powers imply player control of things outside of what his character does (or even knows about). A daily divine power, for instance, could be expended on a given round not because the player called on it that round, but because he called on it each round, and it was at that moment that the god chose to act through him. Each time a Cleric heals, for instance, it could be a miracle that he has no way of actually causing to happen, he just has to have faith that it will. If you describe your Cleric's powers that way, you're actually making decisions for the God he whorships.

The thing is, you can go that way or not, as it suits you. I've seen groups that really like the 'storytelling' aproach, and couldn't stand D&D really take to 4e, because it leaves them that kind of narrative flexibility. Conversely, I've seen groups for whom D&D has always been as much or more small-scale wargame as RPG, similarly take to 4e for it's emphasis on tactical play.

I absolutely encourage creativity, within reasonable limits (no iron golem PCs in my campaigns, for example) and I didn't mean that the rules *restrict* a player's control over narration. However, apart from the player being able to describe his actions, and say when he uses certain (encounter and daily) powers, there's nothing in the rules that would mechanically enable a player to seize control of the narrative in the same way it's hardwired into many Indie RPGs. I personally wouldn't probably ever interfere in the way a player described a power taking place in the story, unless I felt it's a bit too "anime-ish" or "supernatural" (for a martial PC, that is).
 

Oh, I totally agree with 3E high-level play being very, very complex -- however, not so much on the tactical side per se. As you said, it mostly came down to crunching numbers with the wide range of feats and prestige classes, but I didn't see it affecting tactical depth; instead, most optimized PCs were really "one-trick ponies" who relied on the same actions round after round.
There was a prolific school of 'optimization' thought that made the game about winning at chargen. But, if you look at the tactical options in the game - before they became obscured by such things, at lower levels, for instance - there where definitely tactical options and consideration. Surprise, high ground, flanking, etc made positioning of some importance, and AoOs complicated positioning. In addition to melee attacks characters could trip, disarm, sunder, bullrush, or initiate a nightmarishly complicated grapple. The main addition I've seen with 4e is that there's involuntary movement, and AOs are a bit easier to avoid than AoOs, so you get more actual movement.

In 3E, I think the complexity in tactical choices had more to do with spellcasters (and spells in general). ... 4E has none of that; instead, every player must know his powers inside out, and how these powers interact with other PCs.[/quote]Certainly, which is still orders of magnitude easier than learning spells inside out for prepped casters. A 3.x wizard needed to know all the spells he learns inside out - he needs only a passing familiarty with the whole list to choose which one he wants to learn. The divine prepped casters just plain needed to know their whole lists. Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters had it easier, but they still ended up knowing dozens of spells at high level.

4e characters get basic attacks plus two at wills, an encounter and a daily - 6 powers to 'know,' if you count both melee and ranged basic attacks. Three more if you want to consider charge, bullrush, and grapple (which is sooo much simpler). A 1st level 3.x fighter had could attack melee or ranged, charge, bull rush, grapple, disarm, trip, sunder and/or fight defensively. That's actually comparable. By Paragon a 4e character adds 3 encounters, and, late in paragon, a fourth daily, bringing him up to 15 attack options at 20th. A 3.x Sorcerer (the simpler sort of caster caster) at 11th level would have 19 spells known (not including cantrips, of course) to choose from each round. The comparable level 3.x fighter would have added Full Attacks to his options, and, perhaps, feats like Spring Attack, WWA, Power Attack or Expertise or Power Attack - five or six feats from his class features, though it's unlikely /all/ would add combat options, a number of them could - a 12th level fighter who just went for WWA would have that, Spring Attack, Expertise, and Full Attack as additional combat options, bringing him up to 13 combat options.

The 4e characters about top out at 20th, after that, they most trade out encounters and dailies, maybe pick up some sort of additional power with their Epic Destiny. 3.x casters continue to grow in complexity, of course, but even the lowly fighter could add a few more options before completely running out of interesting feats.



Now, this sort of stuff used to be more relevant to spellcasters, but now every PC has to think of the "group synergy" (i.e. "Which of my powers will be most useful to group in this particular situation?") and it can very easily lead to "power paralysis". I've even seen some people badmouthing less tactically-inclined players for playing "stupidly".
I do like that the roles, forced movement, and ally-affecting powers have made teamwork more important. Players who don't like that can gravitate towards strikers - some striker builds (most other than the rogue, I think) require very little coordination to work well. And, indeed, striker is a popular role. ...

For the DM this also means he that he/she must create balanced encounters that challenge the players; although 4E provides a lot of tools for this, not all of us can easily juggle the hazards, terrain effects and "synergy" effects from monster roles and powers. Running a typical 4E combat would be a nightmare for me, because I don't just need to try to use tactics to the best of my ability; I also need to keep track of marks, effects, zones and whatnot. It's just too tactical for me.
Certainly, if there's a player/DM disparity on the tactical decide, it could be a problem. Mostly if the DM is too tactically enclined, though - a single very tactical player still has to engage in the cat-herding required to get any tactical advantage or synergy out of his allies - an overly tactical, overly competative DM can be overwhelming, since his monsters can always coordinate perfectly. Some restraint is actually called for in the DM role.

My current DM was not at all tactically enclined as a player, but she finds it easy to occassionally have monsters engage in good tactics when she gets the infrequent urge to do so, for that reason.

I still think 4E does a lot "right"; it's just the heavily emphasized tactical depth that's keeping me away from it. And that is why I hope 'Essentials' product line will introduce less complex combat rules and classes.
I haven't seen anything to indicate less complex rules options. The martial classes are stripped of daily powers, but have about the same number of options -though some of those options seem simpler to understand.

Now that PF RPG has introduced a new array of options with APG, I'm starting to feel the same with PF NPCs; there's just so many new choices, and some of them are even "overlapping" (e.g. a feat copies an effect that archetypes X and Y already offer at levels 5 and 9, respectively). The end result is that I don't feel I can manage all the fiddly details, and I wish the designers would have created a separate subsystem for handling NPCs.
4e does at least let you design monsters and NPC more easily and with less extraneous detail than 3.x did. The work load on the DM to prep 4e encounters is much reduced. That might help make up for the greater demands for 'tactics' in-play. Of course, if your players aren't a bunch of wererommels, it might not be a problem. ;)



there's nothing in the rules that would mechanically enable a player to seize control of the narrative in the same way it's hardwired into many Indie RPGs.

I personally wouldn't probably ever interfere in the way a player described a power taking place in the story, unless I felt it's a bit too "anime-ish" or "supernatural" (for a martial PC, that is).
What if the player was really into anime and envision his character that way? I gamed with one guy who really was that way (to the point of having his character say stuff in Japanese - which the DM eventually ruled was 'Deep Speech'), and he had a great time. While some of the rest of us kinda rolled our eyes over it at time, the fun was contagious, my warlord eventually took Linguist and chose Deep Speech as one of his languages so I could give IC orders in the characters native language.

"Shana-kun! Totsugeki-da!"
 

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