Can a swarm be grabbed?

[P1NBACK]

Not to me. In one case for instance you have an Armiger taking on the charge of his opponent and using the strength of the incoming attacks to build up his own response, which is an in-world explanation of the way you accumulate tokens to then spend on Armiger class abilities in combat, whereas Crack the Shell, the Fighter attack power (PHB p. 79) does not come with any in-world explanation whatsoever as to why a Fighter could perform this move only once a Day.

I mean, it's not rocket science. If you don't see the difference, Iain, I won't be able to help you there. It's crystal clear to me.

There is an "in-game explanation" for Daily and Encounter Powers in 4E. It's on page 54 of the PHB:

Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while.

Daily powers are the most powerful effects you can produce, and using one takes a significant toll on your physical and mental resources. If you’re a martial character, you’re reaching into your deepest reserves of energy to pull off an amazing exploit.

 

[Odhanan]

There is an "in-game explanation" for Daily and Encounter Powers in 4E. It's on page 54 of the PHB:

Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while.

Daily powers are the most powerful effects you can produce, and using one takes a significant toll on your physical and mental resources. If you’re a martial character, you’re reaching into your deepest reserves of energy to pull off an amazing exploit.

So you can still move the same way, not be fatigued or have any other side effects take place once you've used an Encounter or Daily Exploit, use as many At-Wills as you want, etc, but somehow, there is a mental and physical barrier that takes effect and prevents you from performing this specific move again? I'm sorry, but the rule vs. the explanation does not compute with me. I mean, it's not an unsurmontable leap to just forget about it and not care and just play the game, as I said earlier, but if you're not seeing the disconnect, then I don't know what to say.

 

[P1NBACK]

...whereas Crack the Shell, the Fighter attack power (PHB p. 79) does not come with any in-world explanation whatsoever...

You said there wasn't. I provided it. I'm not making this up. Facts are facts.

So you can still move the same way, not be fatigued or have any other side effects take place once you've used an Encounter or Daily Exploit, use as many At-Wills as you want, etc, but somehow, there is a mental and physical barrier that takes effect and prevents you from performing this specific move again?

No, you can't still move the same and there are certainly side effects. You can't do your Encounter or Daily any more - that's the side effect. That energy/opening/etc... has been expended. When you "rest", you can get those back (get your energy back). The actual power represents energy - when you expend it, you lose that energy.

I'm sorry, but the rule vs. the explanation does not compute with me.

That's your fault, not the game's.

I mean, it's not an unsurmontable leap to just forget about it and not care and just play the game, as I said earlier, but if you're not seeing the disconnect, then I don't know what to say.

You mean, 'insurmountable' I think.

And, I don't know what to say to someone who is seeing the disconnect when there are clearly explanations for the fictional cause of the Encounter and Daily mechanic.

You can like that explanation or not, but there's no "disconnect" here, outside of your inability to disconnect your opinion from fact.

 

[Odhanan]

You said there wasn't. I provided it. I'm not making this up. Facts are facts.

Sure. A crappy explanation that does not make any sense to me, but hey. Still.

No, you can't still move the same and there are certainly side effects. You can't do your Encounter or Daily any more - that's the side effect. That energy/opening/etc... has been expended. When you "rest", you can get those back (get your energy back). The actual power represents energy - when you expend it, you lose that energy.

Nope. You can still move the same, you are not fatigued at all, you can still use any other Daily, even if more powerful, or Encounter power, but for some reason, the ONLY specific side effect is that this only, specific exploit cannot be performed again. Which doesn't make any sense to me. If that represents energy and somehow I've expended these resources Cracking the Shell of my ennemy, I do not understand why I would still have the resources to sprint or why I would still have the resources to sting and hinder nearby foes with a savage fury of strikes aimed at their legs (Thicket of Blades power description, Level 9 Exploit) but somehow could not redirect this "fury" on Cracking the Shell of another one of my enemies. You see some logic in this, fine. I don't.

That's your fault, not the game's.

That's your fault is you don't understand my point. Not mine.
Same level or argumentation, chap. We won't go far with this.

You mean, 'insurmountable' I think.

Yes. I'm a Frenchman, and English is not my first language. Is that a crime? You want to somehow patronize me or make me feel ashamed? You'll have to try harder.

And, I don't know what to say to someone who is seeing the disconnect when there are clearly explanations for the fictional cause of the Encounter and Daily mechanic.

You can like that explanation or not, but there's no "disconnect" here, outside of your inability to disconnect your opinion from fact.

Well, I'm in good company, then, because I don't know what to say to people who argue their point by belittling others, not addressing their points but deflecting responsibility ad hominem style either. I guess we have a communication breakdown at this point.

It's alright.

 

[Initiate]

I think this topic about sums up what this thread has come down to.

xkcd: Duty Calls

Seriously, why bother getting so riled up? It's just D&D rules.

 

[Odhanan]

I think this topic about sums up what this thread has come down to.

xkcd: Duty Calls

Seriously, why bother getting so riled up? It's just D&D rules.

Totally.

 

[P1NBACK]

Sure. A crappy explanation that does not make any sense to me, but hey. Still.

Like I said, that's your opinion. Your original "complaint" was that the game didn't have an in-game explanation "whatsoever". I was just showing you that, yes, it certainly does. Whether that is explanation is satisfactory for you, well, that's up to you.

I may find that the Iron Heroes "explanation" is lame. That's not the point though. The point was, that yes, it is there. We've established this as fact. Next?

Nope. You can still move the same, you are not fatigued at all, you can still use any other Daily, even if more powerful, or Encounter power, but for some reason, the ONLY specific side effect is that this only, specific exploit cannot be performed again.

Yup. This IS the fatigue mechanic in 4th Edition D&D, at least for Martial characters. Encounter and Daily exploits amount to specific reserves of stamina and energy, as well as tactical openings that only happen once every so often that the character can take advantage of. So, being able to "move the same" or using other reserves of energy has nothing to do with it. At all.

Which doesn't make any sense to me.

And, that's fine. But, it's your issue. How is that a problem with the game?

If that represents energy and somehow I've expended these resources Cracking the Shell of my ennemy, I do not understand why I would still have the resources to sprint or why I would still have the resources to sting and hinder nearby foes with a savage fury of strikes aimed at their legs (Thicket of Blades power description, Level 9 Exploit) but somehow could not redirect this "fury" on Cracking the Shell of another one of my enemies. You see some logic in this, fine. I don't.

You're arguing that the fiction shouldn't matter all of a sudden? Here's why you can't use "Crack The Shell" again... Because you've already taken advantage of that opening. You've exploited it and now you simply don't have the resources, stamina, energy, tactical savvy, etc... to find another similar opening. You're not that good fictionally.

That's your fault is you don't understand my point. Not mine.
Same level or argumentation, chap. We won't go far with this.

No. I understand your point. I'm saying it's unfounded. You said, "There is no fictional explanation whatsoever..." and I show you there is. Yet, now that there IS an explanation, that explanation "doesn't make sense".

Yet, it makes perfect sense to me. That's the disconnect. Whether you LIKE the explanation, that's a totally different topic altogether.

Yes. I'm a Frenchman, and English is not my first language. Is that a crime? You want to somehow patronize me or make me feel ashamed? You'll have to try harder.

Not at all. I was actually just trying to point something out to you. If English isn't your native language, perhaps you would be happy to learn. I'm always interested in correcting my mistakes. *shrug*

Well, I'm in good company, then, because I don't know what to say to people who argue their point by belittling others, not addressing their points but deflecting responsibility ad hominem style either. I guess we have a communication breakdown at this point.

It's alright.

I never belittled you. And, I directly answered your comments. I gave you facts and concrete explanations. If that's "belittling" to you, I'm not sure how to deliver that information. Should I coat it in sugar and strawberries? Would that make the truth more satiable for you?

 

[Odhanan]

(I visibly have a hard time stopping *sigh*)

Like I said, that's your opinion. Your original "complaint" was that the game didn't have an in-game explanation "whatsoever". I was just showing you that, yes, it certainly does. Whether that is explanation is satisfactory for you, well, that's up to you.

I may find that the Iron Heroes "explanation" is lame. That's not the point though. The point was, that yes, it is there. We've established this as fact. Next?

I do acknowledge your point then: yes, there is an explanation, and yes, you may find IH's explanations of token pools (which actually depend on the actual pool being considered, for the record) lame. Sure. You can.

Yup. This IS the fatigue mechanic in 4th Edition D&D, at least for Martial characters. Encounter and Daily exploits amount to specific reserves of stamina and energy, as well as tactical openings that only happen once every so often that the character can take advantage of. So, being able to "move the same" or using other reserves of energy has nothing to do with it. At all.

That logic rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's as if each particular move had its own particular energy reserve that cannot be used for any other move. While I can undestand this sort of reasoning in the case of Vancian casting (where one spell is memorized a certain way, and cannot be substituted for another spell/pattern on memory, much like because you learned a poem by heart you can't suddenly shift your memory to recite another, completely different poem you didn't memorize before), I just cannot understand this for exploits performed on the battle field, where the energy I spend on breaking the enemy's armor to pieces somehow can not be put to other use, like striking the enemy's feet with fury.

And, that's fine. But, it's your issue. How is that a problem with the game?

Because the game's logic sucks to me. Fact is, you know as well as I do that this explanation is not why Dailies and Encounter powers work the way they do. They work they way they do for game system reasons, rules balance reasons, and explained after the fact in an half-arsed way with two paragraphs in the rules book. If I am the only one with this problem, then all is fine and good. It's my problem. But if a significant number of D&D fans got problems with this, then it becomes the game's failing to not answer the fans' expectations in terms of logic that would sustain the rules. So. You can keep claiming that's my problem and my own, but the changes that are being made to Essentials as far as Dailies are concerned seem to indicate otherwise.

You're arguing that the fiction shouldn't matter all of a sudden? Here's why you can't use "Crack The Shell" again... Because you've already taken advantage of that opening. You've exploited it and now you simply don't have the resources, stamina, energy, tactical savvy, etc... to find another similar opening. You're not that good fictionally.

Read above. If I don't have the resources, stamina, tactical savvy to perform a level 5 exploit, I don't understand why I would still have them to perform a level 9 exploit still. That does not make any sense. To me.

No. I understand your point. I'm saying it's unfounded. You said, "There is no fictional explanation whatsoever..." and I show you there is. Yet, now that there IS an explanation, that explanation "doesn't make sense".

Yet, it makes perfect sense to me. That's the disconnect. Whether you LIKE the explanation, that's a totally different topic altogether.

Nope. That's where you lose me: you finding the explanation totally logical doesn't de facto make it logical to me, and doesn't make my reasoning wrong. Unless of course you address my actual reasoning, instead of just saying that's my problem and my problem alone.

Not at all. I was actually just trying to point something out to you. If English isn't your native language, perhaps you would be happy to learn. I'm always interested in correcting my mistakes. *shrug*

Thanks for the clarification. It just seemed very patronizing of you. I would appreciate if we could stick to actual arguments.

 

[Gradine]

I never belittled you. And, I directly answered your comments. I gave you facts and concrete explanations. If that's "belittling" to you, I'm not sure how to deliver that information. Should I coat it in sugar and strawberries? Would that make the truth more satiable for you?

I actually agree with you on all the major points you've been making (ie, martial dailies and encounters make perfect sense to me in-context); but I do think we should all just take a moment to marvel at this paragraph.




That's all, go on about your day.

 

[Kobold Boots]

That logic rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's as if each particular move had its own particular energy reserve that cannot be used for any other move. While I can undestand this sort of reasoning in the case of Vancian casting (where one spell is memorized a certain way, and cannot be substituted for another spell/pattern on memory, much like because you learned a poem by heart you can't suddenly shift your memory to recite another, completely different poem you didn't memorize before), I just cannot understand this for exploits performed on the battle field, where the energy I spend on breaking the enemy's armor to pieces somehow can not be put to other use, like striking the enemy's feet with fury.

Well in the case of the vancian spell system.

1. The rules say that I have to memorize a spell and that the spell is wiped when I cast it. I then have to memorize it again to use it. This only makes sense when the inherent magic of the world is taken into account and I allow magic to be the reason why I can both memorize something so quickly and lose it just as fast.

When I memorize something it's in there for longer than a day or one recital. I do not have an 18 WIS or INT in real life (ergo, I'm not a top 1% intellect) therefore it stands to reason that a mage would have better recall than I. Unless somehow magic is involved, therefore there's no real logic there on the order of martial prowess. You shouldn't use that as an example to prove a point in regards to martial prowess.

2. On the order of encounter powers, daily powers etc. Here's the logic: it's a combination of factors that prevents you from using something more than once an encounter or once a day. If the DM feels you can do something more than you're supposed to he or she can allow it.

Why can't I use an encounter power more than once in an encounter:

a. Because you only found opportunity to use it once.
b. Because your enemies only left themselves open once in the encounter.
c. Because it wasn't tactically sound to use the power in the encounter more than once.

I think that most players of D&D haven't been in real fights enough to have a good feel for how chaotic they can be and how fast things really happen. There's a fair amount of truth to "he who lands the first solid shot, wins" and "it's really hard to land a good solid shot if everyone is aware of their surroundings and well trained." I'd argue this is why martial powers are called exploits.

3. Why can't I use my daily power as more uses of my encounter power?

a. Cute answer: Why can't I remember my spells in 3rd Ed? (see previous section 1.)
b. Because it's not really up to you when an opponent leaves himself open to what your character knows..

The game takes into account the fact that combat is chaotic. It also takes into account that players have control over their characters and decide when the character attempts to do something. It's assumed that the player "knows" when that opening is because the game is intended to be cinematic and the players should be using their abilities at appropriate times.

c. Because it's a game and needs game balance. (Ultimately)

Just my take.

KB