Can a sword and shield fighter make a natural weapon slam attack in the same round?

[irdeggman]

Hyp, I'd say that this puts your interpretation on pretty solid ground from a RAW standpoint:



-Elemmakil

There is a difference between "is much like attacking with a melee. . . "

And "behave like a manufactured weapon"

In one case you can place weapon enhancements on it (like from spells and the like) for the other attack rolls are made like it was a melee attack.

 

[Elemmakil]

There is a difference between "is much like attacking with a melee. . . "

And "behave like a manufactured weapon"

In one case you can place weapon enhancements on it (like from spells and the like) for the other attack rolls are made like it was a melee attack.

"Behaves like" is not synonymous with "is:" you obviously cannot sunder an unarmed strike, because it isn't a weapon, it's just behaves like one in combat.

-Elemmakil

 

[irdeggman]

"Behaves like" is not synonymous with "is:" you obviously cannot sunder an unarmed strike, because it isn't a weapon, it's just behaves like one in combat.

-Elemmakil

Which backs up my statement.

Where do you draw the line on "behaves like"?

Using the written text "much like attacking with a melee weapon" narrows it down to "attacking" which is not as broad as "extra damage, etc. - that can be added to "manufactured weapons".

 

[Jhaelen]

I wouldn't allow it. I cannot remember ever having seen a monster or an npc that used both a (twohanded) weapon attack and a slam attack.

While the definition of 'slam' doesn't state which appendage it has to be, I'd assume it's typically the one which would otherwise be used to wield a weapon.

 

[Meeki]

Don't forget that slam uses 1.5 str and should be compared with 2 handed weapons as what is available to use to do other things. I always thought of a slam as a blunt attack, such as a slam from a vampire would be using both of his hands to "axe handle" ( I think its called when you hit someone with one hand wrapped around a fist) or some sort of all out sequence of hits, one that would use multiple appendages to equate for the 1.5 str damage output. I know that a slam is a natural attack and it says any appendage could be used but I think the DM should really think about this on a creature by creature basis. A vampire obviously cannot slam with his head, how the heck would he do 1.5 damage with his head, or even a kick isn't really powerful enough IMO. For a vampire I would require the use of his hands to be part of the slam attack.

 

[Slaved]

Don't forget that slam uses 1.5 str and should be compared with 2 handed weapons as what is available to use to do other things. I always thought of a slam as a blunt attack, such as a slam from a vampire would be using both of his hands to "axe handle" ( I think its called when you hit someone with one hand wrapped around a fist) or some sort of all out sequence of hits, one that would use multiple appendages to equate for the 1.5 str damage output. I know that a slam is a natural attack and it says any appendage could be used but I think the DM should really think about this on a creature by creature basis. A vampire obviously cannot slam with his head, how the heck would he do 1.5 damage with his head, or even a kick isn't really powerful enough IMO. For a vampire I would require the use of his hands to be part of the slam attack.

The vampire text I quoted earlier explicitly allows the vampire to use a weapon and its slam attack.

 

[Meeki]

The vampire text I quoted earlier explicitly allows the vampire to use a weapon and its slam attack.

While this is true the slam rules are a bit vague and all over the place. Since the description of the vampire text does not take into account wearing a shield, like most descriptions of attacks, it is left up to the description of the creature and discretion of the DM to figure out if their slam attack is available.

A vampire utilizes its arms to make a slam attack, as is suggested in the natural weapons description and the slam description. Since it is stated that large creatures (and up I assume) with arms and arm like appendages can make a slam attack with each arm, while most creatures only get one, I can only assume that creatures smaller than large with arms and arm like appendages can only make 1 attack that utilizes both arms because it wouldn't make sense to let a large creature make two slam attacks utilizing one arm a piece while a medium size creature only makes one slam attack utilizing one arm. Plus the extra strength damage seems to fit the more than one apendange theme. The real question is can a vampire use the same arm that is weilding a weapon to make a slam attack?

I say no, you need both hands, well "arms". Of course the DM could allow for a vampire to give up the use of his shield to make a slam attack or something to the effect.

 

[Slaved]

I was simply pointing out the vampire entry, what it says about its slam attack, and how that meshed with what you said. That is all.

 

[Meeki]

Ah sorry to jump on you, I edited my above post to be less abrasive. Hard to pick out if you were being negative or not. Well I hope I expanded on the vampire at least. The slam descriptions are all over the place and not really collected to well. Natural attacks can be vague at times.

 

[Zurai]

Don't forget that slam uses 1.5 str and should be compared with 2 handed weapons as what is available to use to do other things.

Incorrect. Single slams (such as a vampire or warforged have) are "2 handed attacks" - but double slams (such as certain oozes and golems have) are not. This makes sense, because it follows the natural attack rules to the letter. Solitary natural attacks are treated as 2 handed weapons.