Can Arcane Casters Heal? Disrupt Undead?

[Klaus]

Because it simply can't be done (again, IMC). Arcane magic simply cannot replicate the curing effects of divine magic, except by attuning itself to the so-called "Music of the Spheres" (i.e. bard spells) or by bending reality itself (wish or limited wish).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Because it simply can't be done (again, IMC).

I guess my point is, "Why can any apprentice wizard figure out how to throw around small bolts of positive energy, but an advanced wizard can't figure out how to throw around slightly bigger bolts of positive energy, or multiple bolts at once, etc.?"

I mean, they can do it with everything else - negative energy, electricity, fire, etc. - why not positive energy? It seems very ... hand-wavy ... to me if the answer is "Just because."

 

[irdeggman]

Klaus

They have a potential to heal more, but they can't control it (hence the 1d6), and it doesn't get better (no Greater Disrupt Undead). A Maximized Disrupt Undead would be a 4th level spell (iirc) and heal an amazing 6 (!!!) points of damage. At those levels a cleric is healing what, 3d6 + 7 damage?

The apprentice cleric learns to steadily control positive energy, so by the time he gets to 1st level, he's able to heal far better than any mage can hope to.

At least IMC

There are so many things that appear to be wrong about this premise to me.

How is a 1d8 +1 per level (max of +5) (mostly random) more a reflection of control than is a 1d6 (totally random)? The CLW spell is a 1st level spell with a range of touch while the DU spell is a 0-level spell range of close (i.e., a ray).


Note from the SRD all of the spells that cure (as a primary function, not as a supplemental one, like polymorph) fall under Conjuration (Healing) while the DU spell is a Necromantic one. To me this is a very big distinction the Inflict Wounds spells are likewise Necromantic.

I don’t have my CD book here, but anyone correct me if I’m wrong (or tell me the text if I’m right) that turning undead is also channeling positive energy while rubuking is channeling negative energy. If so then the logic that DU cures since it is channeling positive energy should also apply in some manner to these actions, and the “positive” effects of negative energy on undead should likewise apply to spells like Ghoul’s Touch.

Disrupt Undead
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You direct a ray of positive energy. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit, and if the ray hits an undead creature, it deals 1d6 points of damage to it.



Cure Light Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1, Rgr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.


Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures only 1 point of damage.


Inflict Light Wounds
Necromancy
Level: Clr 1, Destruction 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half
Spell Resistance: Yes
When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy that deals 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.


Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.


Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.

 

[Goolpsy]

Sure a wizard can heal (sort off) the wizard breaking the taboo and begins researching more of that "posetive energy" thing, is jsut like taking one level in cleric... then you would have your wizard (thats the main class) i.e. Wiz 13/Clr 1
that can cast healing spells.

further more its a balance thing, Sure you could cast healing spelsl if your DM would allow it, but while breaking the balance, why not give all half-orcs wings.. and water elementals swords of Fire?

 

[TheYeti1775]

It was mainly a thought when I was typing up my spell list for a first level warmage.
That's what began all this, started IM'ing Funeris over it. We both thought it an interesting application of the cantrip, as quick ranged healing.
So I posted it here for some input. The majority are in agreement that the 'D.U.' spell could not be applied in such a way to heal 1d6 hp's.

irdeggman (& Hypersmurf),
On the power of the Cure Minor Wounds, in your post just above, could that not be interpeted as having 1+level(max 5) hp's cured?
"This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures only 1 point of damage."
Just a curious question, I've always played the one point too. But every other Cure spell has that level bonus. Makes your battle field healers that much more effective.

Would anyone object to something along the lines for the D.U. Spell of a simple closing of the wounds (i.e. Stabilizing Effect). It wouldn't cure any hp loss, just stabilize at the current level. Still a Ranged Touch Attack, and we all know how good your mages are at hitting something.

Just more food for thought.
The Yeti

 

[Mark Causey]

Chill Touch makes a specific statement that it doesn't heal undead with the negative energy it creates, I believe. The explanation of the Positive Energy Plane does state that you will immolate on the plane if not protected (DMG p. 158). Thus, Positive Energy is not inherenty beneficial.

 

[ARandomGod]

So why hasn't any wizard put 2 and 2 together and researched one?

See my post above, it pretty much describes why they haven't done it.

Irdeggman, Note that the "conjuration" healing is a mislabeling of the spell. Healing spells originated in necromancy, and if you look up the definition of necromancy, you will discover that a spell which maniuplates life energies, to harm OR to heal, is a necromantic one. The gods are lying to you. Probably to prevent mages from researching the spell.

You can call ANYthing conjuration if you try hard enough, and WoTC is starting to do just that. Now they have "conjured" fireballs and "conjured" positive energy touches. That doesn't mean that there aren't the more traditional evoked fireballs and necromantic positive energy spells.

further more its a balance thing, Sure you could cast healing spelsl if your DM would allow it, but while breaking the balance, why not give all half-orcs wings.. and water elementals swords of Fire?

Mostly it's because you'd have to raise their CR... but you could do it easily. Whereas granting a spell doesn't really affect balance in that way. Your analogy there is pretty specifically flawed.

 

[irdeggman]

Chill Touch makes a specific statement that it doesn't heal undead with the negative energy it creates, I believe. The explanation of the Positive Energy Plane does state that you will immolate on the plane if not protected (DMG p. 158). Thus, Positive Energy is not inherenty beneficial.

No it doesn't.

from the SRD

Chill Touch
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: Creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds +1 round per caster level.

PHB doesn't have any text on it either.

 

[irdeggman]

.

irdeggman (& Hypersmurf),
On the power of the Cure Minor Wounds, in your post just above, could that not be interpeted as having 1+level(max 5) hp's cured?
"This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures only 1 point of damage."
Just a curious question, I've always played the one point too. But every other Cure spell has that level bonus. Makes your battle field healers that much more effective.


The Yeti

Nope.

This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures only 1 point of damage.

Pretty specific terminology to me "only 1 point". Especially since not all of the cure spells are limited to a maximum of +5 (they go from a max of +5 to a max of +35 depending on the spell).

 

[Mark Causey]

PHB doesn't have any text on it either.

PHB 3.5 pg 209

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4+1 round per caster level.