Can bows be Keen?

[FrankTrollman]

OK, let's go to Rule #1: the specific entry overrides the table. If the table listed a restriction that Bows could not be Keen - which it does not - then you could still make Bows be Keen because the specific entry says "Only piercing or slashing weapons".

But it doesn't stop there - oh no! Because the Deepwood Sniper and the Elven Greatbow both give the Keen Weapon bonus to their projectiles.

There is nothing that says that Bows can't be Keen and there are several supporting statements that they can. Belaboring this point makes you look foolish, because you might as well be arguing that Druids can't flank because the flanking example doesn't list a Druid character doing it.*

-Frank

*Druid characters can flank.

 

[Thanee]

There is nothing that says that Bows can't be Keen and there are several supporting statements that they can.

Like?

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

Like?

* The Keen Bows and Arrows found in non-core material.

* The fact that the weapon creation rules give an explicit list of what can and cannot be made Keen and that list includes a set which in turn contains Bows.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

Well, there are also items in non core materials that are not allowed by the core rules. So, just because some one has put it in print, does not mean it's possible.

But personally, I have no problem with the bow being keen.

 

[Thanee]

* The Keen Bows and Arrows found in non-core material.

Well, the consistency of those is sometimes questionable (not always, of course), but which book is a Keen Bow in, havn't seen one myself?

* The fact that the weapon creation rules give an explicit list of what can and cannot be made Keen and that list includes a set which in turn contains Bows.

You mean the mentioning of piercing and slashing weapons, which is pretty obviously limited to melee weapons (being a foot note of the melee weapon special ability table, and later repeated in the list of all special abilities)? Or do you mean another "explicit list"?

The item creation rules (SRD) have this, for example...

"A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities or Table Ranged Weapon Special Abilities."

This is the only mentioning of these special abilities, so the special ability tables seem to be a key element here.

This obviously must mean, that you can use melee and ranged properties on either weapon, as it doesn't specifically say, you can use abilities from the first table only for melee weapons and from the second for ranged weapons, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

[sarcasm] You're right! How could I be so blind! That must mean that all the additional special abilities in other books (which don't appear on that table) cannot be placed on items under any circumstances.[/sarcasm]

Seriously though. If we accepted your reasoning, we would be forced to conclude that the lists were exclusive - and thus that additional item enhancements in MoF, Sword and Fist, etc. simply did not exist.

It's just a table for generating magic items. It explicitly doesn't cover everything that could be found, and even more so does not cover everything which could be made. There are rules for item creation that cover things that you cannot roll up on the charts. Your claim that the charts have anything, at all, to do with what you can and cannot make is ludicrous.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

We are not talking about special abilites from other books though, the special ability does appear in the DMG. If keen was meant to be on the ranged weapon table we would have seen it in the errata.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I grant that it's not meant to be on the ranged table - but that doesn't mean anything. There's lots of stuff that isn't on the tables - from dual-use magic items to the fact that the scroll table does not include all the spells.

Lesser Planar Binding does not appear on the Arcane Scrolls chart. That does not mean that you can't put Lesser Planar Binding on a scroll. That just means that people don't do it often enough to warrant putting it on a table of items which could be randomly found.

Keen does not appear on the ranged weapons table. Originally this was because Keen applied to Slashing Weapons only (and there are not very many slashing ranged weapons). Now it's just legacy because it wasn't on the 3rd edition table either. That's all it means - it's not on the table - and that just means that it's not on the table. The item creation rules do not say that you have to select things from the table - they direct you to select things from the weapons ability list.

-Frank

 

[Deset Gled]

Or do they not qualify as piercing weapons? Does a Keen bow just bestow the ability on its arrows?

There's nothing specifically in the rules that says you can't enchant a bow as keen. Unfortunately, since it lacks the important "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow this upon their ammunition" clause, it won't affect the arrows.

 

[youspoonybard]

There's nothing specifically in the rules that says you can't enchant a bow as keen. Unfortunately, since it lacks the important "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow this upon their ammunition" clause, it won't affect the arrows.

Well, a sling can't be keen, no matter what, that's for sure : P.