Can the gods strip a paladin of his class?

[Agback]

Of course it doesn't have to be this way, the DM is free to do whatever he wants.

Sorry, I asked the wrong question. I ought to have asked "Is there a rule somewhere in the D&D core that says it is this way [unless the DM declares otherwise, of course]?"

And if the game has paladins that don't serve gods, then one must still figure out who what is servedhas the power to give and remove abilities like this.

I would agree that one must consider how it comes about that a paladin loses his or her powers, which I think you might say was the same as 'what took them away'. I would say that qualities can naturally cease to exist when the conditions that support them cease to apply, like a fire going out when it has used up all its fuel, used up all its oxygen, or got too cold to support ignition. I wouldn't say that anyone or anything took away the flame when a match burned out. But I reckon that that is a purely terminological disagreement, and beside the point besides. So I would be happy to let it drop.

 

[Eloi]

If the Paladin character begins to act in a contrary manner to the path which grants his Paladin status, the Gamesmaster has imaginative flexibility as to how to handle the situation.

How to express to the character that, if they keep acting like this, they will lose their paladinhood?

Perhaps a series of disturbing dreams. Perhaps a demon will approach the Paladin, express that he's been keeping an eye on the Paladin, and ask if he's ready to walk on the wild side.

The answer to the question "Is there any rule that states how Gods decide when and how to strip their Paladins of their powers" has a general answer, based on common sense: when the Paladin is way out of line. Looking for a Rule as written - looking in the spell description for Atonement might guide you.

Does the GM have final say? Yes.

If the Deity in question is the God of Children and the Time of Innocence, with the minor sub-stipulation that Tapioca pudding is a forbidden substance for a Paladin to knowingly ingest.. and it comes to pass that a Paladin of this God is found shovelling Tapioca pudding into his mouth using the severed left hand of a five-year-old as a spoon, while the maimed five-year-old screams uncomprehendingly nearby.. that Paladin is in trouble.

What form the trouble takes? Ask the GM.

Could you, at a guess, say that we're looking at a loss-of-Paladin, class-stripping situation, based solely on the information we have at hand? Sure looks that way to me - might even be the step just before the Bolt from the Blue vaporizes the ex-Paladin.

Who knows for sure? The GM.

 

[Agback]

But in the end, the RAW does not demand that paladins be connected to gods any more than barbarians or fighters, nor that their powers necessarily stem from them. Surely, the flavor text strongly infers it….

The flavour text implies it by using the word 'divine'. And then explicitly denies it under the 'religion' heading, sayig that some devote themselves to a particular god, but that devotion to righteousness is enough for most.

Is that the entire purpose of this thread? Oi. You win. Next thread.

The purpose of this thread (well, my purpose in launching it and struggling to keep it on topic) is to discover information. That being the case, I was bound to 'win' whether my original opinion was confirmed or whether it was proven wrong.

 

[Agback]

If the Paladin character begins to act in a contrary manner to the path which grants his Paladin status, the Gamesmaster has imaginative flexibility as to how to handle the situation.

Indeed. But that would be the case no matter what it said in the rules, because of Rule Zero. You see, I am not asking about the discretion of the DM, because I know that it is unlimited. What I am asking (and please feel free to ignore this thread if you find the question pointless, boring, or dull) is whether the core rules anywhere say that paladins are chosen, empowered, or judged by their gods--in the way, for example, that the rules say this of those clerics that serve gods.

 

[LostSoul]

How to express to the character that, if they keep acting like this, they will lose their paladinhood?

Perhaps a series of disturbing dreams. Perhaps a demon will approach the Paladin, express that he's been keeping an eye on the Paladin, and ask if he's ready to walk on the wild side.

Off topic, but to give you an example of how I handled it.

I had a character who, because of a near-death experience, decided to take levels of Paladin. His in-game take on this was that he experienced the voice of God who gave him a holy quest.

In the logic of the game world, this was just his own faith, since God didn't do anything of the sort. His own pure faith sustained his powers. I didn't tell him this, though.

He did some sort of questionable action that caused me to ask the player, "Do you think that your character still deserves all his powers?" Either way, it was up to him.

He decided that, based on what happened, that he was unable to use his Cure Disease power. He lost faith in himself, in his own self-appointed adherence to his quest, and thus he was unable to use his power.

I may have told him (or just hinted at it) that his power would come back when he felt it would.

It was pretty cool.


As far as the original question goes, I think general opinion is that no, there is no rule that says a Paladin recieves his abilities from a god or goddess.

 

[Hadrian]

What I am asking (and please feel free to ignore this thread if you find the question pointless, boring, or dull) is whether the core rules anywhere say that paladins are chosen, empowered, or judged by their gods--in the way, for example, that the rules say this of those clerics that serve gods.

I would have to say 'No'.

 

[Eloi]

LostSoul - Neat! Thank you for the brief story.


The RAW avoid most questions of faith, leaving it up to the integrity of the player (or lack thereof) to demonstrate whether the Paladin is behaving worthily.

Please refer to "The Deed of Paksenarrion" by Elizabeth Moon, # ISBN 0-671-72104-6
Published by Baen Publishing Enterprises, P.O. Box 1403, Riverdale, NY, USA 10471, 1992

This trilogy is widely referred to as "the gold standard" for Paladin activities.

Read it.

If you have any questions, read it again.

 

[Agback]

He did some sort of questionable action that caused me to ask the player, "Do you think that your character still deserves all his powers?" Either way, it was up to him.

I think you're onto something here. This wouldn't work for a player who was too attached to his or her kewl powerz to reveal an honest opinon, or who had a sense of good and evil that was much laxer than that or the rest of the group. But subject to those caveats I think a lot of the unhappiness and trouble that arises from people playing paladin's could be avoided if it were up to the paladin-player rather than the DM (in the person of the paladin's god or otherwise) whether the paladin remained Good and Lawful, whether he or she had acted evilly, etc..

But perhaps that discussion would be more suited to the 'General Role-playing' forum.

 

[LostSoul]

But subject to those caveats I think a lot of the unhappiness and trouble that arises from people playing paladin's could be avoided if it were up to the paladin-player rather than the DM (in the person of the paladin's god or otherwise) whether the paladin remained Good and Lawful, whether he or she had acted evilly, etc..

But perhaps that discussion would be more suited to the 'General Role-playing' forum.

I'll keep it short since you're right, this isn't the proper forum for such discussion.

I came to this point of view because, back in the heady days of late-2000, I heard repeatedly that mechanical bonuses should not be penalized by role-playing penalties. So therefore, the Paladin must be balanced without his code of conduct. No reason for me, as DM, to enforce it, since it's just flavour. Since it's just flavour, let the player decide (and I thought that he would enjoy being in charge of his powers rather than me).