Can we go back to smaller books?

As a point to the 'loose redundant text and explanations', look at Fantasy Craft.

It's 392 pages with contents and index, covers PHB, DMG, and MM material, and was written to reduce repetition and redundancy so as to fit as much game in as possible (and some stuff still got left out).

I love it, and I can find my way around it fine. One of the persistent comments on the Crafty forums though, is that people over look or can't find things because they only appear once and it's not where the person in question would think to look for them. The next most common thing is people asking questions about rules because the wording, while unambiguous, is not explicit.

Brevity is not always the best goal in writing.
 

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i'm fine with the size as long as its useful text.

In fact, larger books are probably cheaper than several smaller books of the same content. Plus I'd imagine a large book versus several smaller books is also more efficient (i.e. only 1 intro to include rather than an intro for every book, 1 table of contents, 1 index and glossary, etc versus multiples spread across all the books).
 

How to make a certain amount of money:

1) Sell a small range of products to a large group of people.

2) Sell a large range of products to a small group of people.

For the history of D&D it's gone (relatively) from 1 -> 2

More books -> more sales. Bigger books - > More profit per book. (mix & match as you wish).

D&D adventures no longer sell in the 100,000s. To keep on surviving: follow what the remaining core players like and sell lots of it to them, regularly.
 

Books are geeting smaller page counts with larger print, TV shows are losing minutes again (anyone actually TIME their favorite half-hour comedy lately versus about two years ago?) and I'm getting annoyed that people are charging higher price for less and less actual content.

Yeah, but then again, that goes for just about everybody. Do you know anyone who will accept a 1970's hourly wage today?
 

Yeah, but then again, that goes for just about everybody. Do you know anyone who will accept a 1970's hourly wage today?

I would if eggs still cost 50 cents and gas was a quarter a gallon. :D I get your point, but on the books issue, we're talking a difference of only five or six years, really. For TV, it's gonna get ridiculous when a "half-hour" show is actually 10 minutes long, with 20 minutes of commercials - and that's maybe 10-15 years away at this point. ;)
 

People pay $60 for games that are intended to provide them 6-8 hours entertainment, so i don't see why not.Tabletaop gaming prices -- and the nerdrage surrounding them -- has always confounded me given the absolutely astounding cost-to-entertainment-hours ratio of RPGs and other TT games. Compared to movies or video games, RPGs are dirt cheap. I mean, those of us still playing with books we bought 1, 5, 10 or even 25 years ago can hardly complain about the cost, can we?

years ago I had an argument with my wife over the amount of money I spend on these "nerd books" as she called them. Once I broke it down in relation to other forms of entertainment she realized just how much bang for the buck I was getting she did a 180 and is know helping me write up my campaign world.

In terms of the OP, of course books could go back to a smaller page count and still be complete but clearly the market demands more detail. I think as a customer we have become much more sophisticated in how we play our games, what we expect our game to do for us. Seeing as those expectations sit on a wide spectrum it had required the rule sets to be much more inclusive of play types.
 

"What happens when you are 15th level?"

While I suppose it counts as a house rule, I have been liking level caps for a long time now. So one could interpret the table stopping at level 14 as being the end of advancement.

In 4E it become formalized as a level 30 cap, a very positive development in my opinion.

Not that this invalidates the rest of your points in any way. Just thought that I'd give a different perspective on this element.
 

Further reflection on the topic brings me to the conclusion that what I really want is slimmer rules reference books, and big fat honkin' setting/meta-setting types books for reading and campaign/adventure development. In other words -- give me a "rules cyclopedia" (3.5 type) for carrying to the game and all the "normal" books for weighing down my shelves.

I know -- you just can't please some people... ;)
 

Not only could you produce a 'complete' D&D in under 300 pages, I would argue that it must be done. As things stand, the buy in to start up a campaign of one of the recent editions is just too much - before you get to play, someone has to read through 832 (4e), 960 (3.5e) or 896 (Pathfinder) pages of core rules.

Put that in front of a new player, and it's just too much. They'll go play WoW instead. (I have literally seen the enthusiasm die in the eyes of new players when they saw the 3.0e core rules. "Do we have to read all that before we play?" they asked me.)

The alternative that WotC persist with is a Basic Set that players are expected to play through twice, then throw away and then read their 832 pages of rules. Which I'm sure is a great idea, and will work really well. Or, at least, as well as the last several times they've tried it.

IMO, WotC should be taking their cue from the Star Wars Saga Edition line: one core rulebook of no more than 256 pages, containing everything that is needed to play, followed by a set of supplements that can cover whatever elements that people feel were "left out".
 

I'm curious about this question as well, because the upcoming "Essentials" line for D&D 4E doesn't remotely look as if it's trimming stuff down to make it a more compact rules reference. Sure, it's intended to make it easier to pick it up as a game for people who've never hard of RPGs before - which mandates extra verbiage, as per Umbran's post earlier - but providing a simplified rules reference it probably won't.

I'm saying this for a couple of reasons. Our current thread contains some very good observations on what a compact rules reference needs. Lots of white space, e.g., to make quick absorption of info easier. Great layout. Large font. Incidentally, the D&D 3.5 Rules Compendium had all that (e.g. page size of 10.9 x 8.5 inches). The 4E Rules Compendium, otoh, seems to have none of it. For one, it's a bloated book with 250+ pages. Too long. For another, the size of the pages are reduced - 9 x 6 inches. Which means that information that could be grouped on two facing A4 pages would now need to go on three smaller pages, adding the page flipping. Also, a reduction of font size (seriously, keep the current font size and double columns.... you can't do that on the reduced page size).

That said, you could SO fit 4E in a very slim rules reference. Mind you, the idea here would be to have a Core Rulebook and then to have all classes, races, feats, and gear in separate sources (like... stashes of cards!). Here's my break-down for this, leafing through PHB 1 chapter by chapter.

1. Chapter 1-2: If we go for a compact rules reference, "How to Play" and "Character Creation" are mostly not part of the Core Rules, and to the extent that they are (which in part they undeniable are) can be compressed into something smaller. E.g., just looking at chapter 2, I'd kick out all that pointless verbiage on what stuff like the tiers actually mean and go for the cold number tables. Ditto for 'roleplaying' and 'deities'. That leaves us with pp. 14-18 (left half of 18 only), 25-28, table on p.29, pp.30-31. = 11 pages

2. Races - If we follow the aforementioned approach, I think one could condense the strict rules bit a lot. Let's say 4 pages, and that's generous.

3. Chapter 4. PP. 52-59 are essential, rest goes on power cards. 9 pages

4. Chapter 5. All of it, pp. 178-189. 12 pages

5. Chapter 6, feats. Strictly, you need all of it but on my envisaged version I'd either get rid of feats as part of the Core Rules OR (if players feel strongly about them) have cards for them. Partly, some feats will have to made into power cards anyway (see 4.), e.g. Channel Divinity. 0 pages, but that's a cop out on my part.

6. Equipment aka the info 'how much damage does a longsword do'. I think like powers this info needs to go onto cards. Even then, you'll need at least 3 pages explaining the terminology that goes onto that card. The "[W]" which no one found when first leafing through the PHB would need go get explained up front, as would the basic terms on the magic item cards (pp224-226). 5 pages

7. Chapter 8 - "Exploration", "Rest and Recovery" (260-263; and the short paragraph on "Milestones" on p.259). 4 pages

8. Chapter 9 - Combat. All of it. It's 31 pages.

9. Chapter 10 - Rituals. 1 page of explanation of "How to Read a Ritual" etc. Remainder of the chapter goes on a separate stash of cards please.

So in total that's 77 pages. That is the type of book I think 4E players could do exceedingly well with. Fully updated with errata, add in 5 pages for a complete glossary with all the keywords (basically the final entry in PHB 3). Instead we get this, "a quick and handy rules reference" which clocks in at 320 pages of reduced page size, and will fall apart after frequent page flipping thanks to softcover binding. It's dead cheap, which I'm grateful for, but I'd rather shell out $30 and have a solid rules reference that comes in handy for many years to come, lies flat on the table so I can hold cards&snacks and roll dice while I'm reading it and allows me to gather the information I need at the table in a heartbeat.
 
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