Can we go back to smaller books?

The issue is that it doesn't need to be big to be either D&D or a complete game, and we know this because it has been in the past.

That doesn't actually follow - because D&D has changed over time. There are things now in the game that aren't just bloat and repetition that were not in the game before, but little has been removed. Thus, you should not expect to be able to condense it to similar low pagecount.


Again, this thread stemmed from me looking at the Pathfinder Core book and being filled with dispair. It's just too damn big. Finding anything in there is going to be a pain. lugging it to the game is going to be a pain. Passing it around the table is going to be a pain. Comparatively, my AD&D PHB is light as a feather.

The Pathfinder book (575 pgs) is effectively the 3.5 PHB and DMG (total about 630 pgs) rolled into one - with a comparative savings of $10 and 55 pages) to the consumer. The Pathfinder book is effectively smaller than the 3.5e equivalents.

Now, you may argue that the players don't need the DMG content, and I'd have to agree with you, but that's a bit of a different issue.


It seems -- and I haven't combed through, section by section, word by word -- to come not from an growing complexity of the rules, but rather a bloating of the text itself, an expansion of the language used to convey the rules and the layout of the book. Can it be nicer to read on the can, or easier on the eyes? Sure, but its utility as a rule book is lessened and its inconvenience in play is increased.

Well, this brings up a large question - what use is more important? Learning or reference? The extra verbiage is important for the former - a certain brevity is good for the latter. I submit that the design of the book is a compromise, and that's kind of necessary from a business standpoint.
 

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Perhaps the issue is conflating "complete" with "broad". D&D has always taken work on the part of the DM and players to make it anything broader than a dungeon adventure game -- even during the 2E days when adventures and supplments extolled intrigue and romance, the rules still supported dungeon delves the most (except the distinct lack of a dungeon section in the DMG -- which was odd). D&D, any edition, isn't "incomplete" because it has a particular focus, any more than Monopoly is incomplete because there are no rules for character advancement.

This is such a broad analysis that I don't think it gets us anywhere.

Let's try to avoid speaking in generalities.

I consider a rules set 'complete' if it contains every rule necessary for playing the game. This is what is normally meant by 'complete rules' when we speak of a board game, for example. For the purposes of RPG's, this is strictly impossible, so I would allow that an RPG rules set must and should exclude 'conventions of play' that would be part of the common knowledge of all players, such that a chair is something you sit on or that barring some special exception you can't walk through a wall. So, for the purposes of RPG's, it is sufficient for the RPG to describe itself sufficiently to describe all the things in its imagined gamespace that aren't part of the standard RPG 'conventions of play'.

Now, let's consider the D&D Basic set. You consider it complete because you could sit down and start playing the game using only the D&D Basic set, and in that sense you are right. However, I consider it incomplete for several reasons. The obvious reason I consider it incomplete is the existance of the Expert set. However, this isn't a sufficient reason in and of itself to consider the game incomplete. It could be that you have an imagined game world were no character exists which is over 3rd level. The trouble with this is that the designers of the game seemed to have alot of trouble desribing there imagined world within these contraints. In particular, right there in the D&D Basic set was the module, 'B2: Keep on the Borderlands', and in the module it described the existance of things not covered by the rules, like for example (IIRC) the Castellan was a 6th level fighter - impossible under the rules. This is in my opinion sufficient (among many other examples) to prove that the Basic set was incomplete. It was an insufficient ruleset set to describe everything that was included in its imaged game space - a fairly generic fantasy setting. This was less true, but still true, of the Basic set and the Expert set combined.

The issue is that it doesn't need to be big to be either D&D or a complete game, and we know this because it has been in the past.

And again, I think I've already demonstrated that it has never been a complete game at 200 pages or less, and that the closest it ever came was 304 pages (and even then, I'd already rejected it as incomplete).

I argue that given sufficient editorial care, 3.x, 4E, pathfinder or even HackMaster 4E could be produced "complete" in 200 pages or less.

Go ahead and do so then. I argue that a complete version of any of those games in 200 pages or less would have significant economic value.
 

And again, I think I've already demonstrated that it has never been a complete game at 200 pages or less, and that the closest it ever came was 304 pages (and even then, I'd already rejected it as incomplete).

I am not sure we can call the matter closed. My two brothers and i had, in our possession, the Basic and Expert sets, and nothing else, for two years and played what we cosidered to be a "complete" game regularly. Certainly, we made stuff up a lot, but this was part of the game (and what made D&D so much greater than anything we'd played before). So while you may have found it "incomplete" when you first fell upon it, we found it perfectly suitable to long term play.

The argument that the D&D game space has grown beyond what could be held in those 170 odd pages is an interesting one. I am tempted to dig out my 3.5 SRD rtf files and see.
 

I consider a rules set 'complete' if it contains every rule necessary for playing the game. This is what is normally meant by 'complete rules' when we speak of a board game, for example. For the purposes of RPG's, this is strictly impossible, so I would allow that an RPG rules set must and should exclude 'conventions of play' that would be part of the common knowledge of all players, such that a chair is something you sit on or that barring some special exception you can't walk through a wall. So, for the purposes of RPG's, it is sufficient for the RPG to describe itself sufficiently to describe all the things in its imagined gamespace that aren't part of the standard RPG 'conventions of play'.

Bold emphasis mine.

Necessary is as subjective a term as complete so nothing has changed. The amount of defined rules deemed necessary to play a game will vary considerably from person to person and so the definition of completeness remains fluid.

OD&D is a complete game.
B/X D&D is a complete game
3E D&D is a complete game
4E D&D is a complete game

All of these games have room for user added content yet none of them are 'incomplete' without it.

We can always point a finger and say that a game is incomplete because it contains no information on topics that we find to be of importance personally.

4E D&D is incomplete, there are no rules for building strongholds or running a Barony.

OD&D is incomplete, there is no skill system.

Objective 'completeness' is a myth.
 

Objective 'completeness' is a myth.

Considering that I've repeatedly emphasised that the most essential problem is we can't agree on what complete means, I don't know what you are actually arguing against. I do know that there has never been an edition of D&D which internally testified to being 'complete' which weighed in at 200 pages or less, and that by any definition of complete a fraction of a finite thing is not the thing itself.

Even if I accept that BECMI is a complete game, 3E D&D is a complete game
and 4E D&D is a complete game, none of them weigh in at less than 200 pages when collected into a single set of rules and none of the subsets of these games claim to be complete in themselves and clearly indicate a larger range of play beyond that which each subset of the rules cover. The D&D rules cyclopedia is the closest D&D has ever came to trying to provide a single comprehensive set of rules, and it doesn't even make it down to 300 pages despite legendary terseness and amazing organization by its writer/editor.

Interestingly, it doesn't appear that Reynard ever attempted to claim that. It now appears that Reynard is claiming that there exists some amount of unnecessary 'bloat' in the description of the text which can be removed from the text without dividing it and which would leave the text in its essential parts unchanged. That is a quite different claim, and one which I also reject on different grounds.
 

Didn't one of the 3PP (Mongoose?) publish digest-sized versions of the 3e rulebooks? Those, at least, would help with the lugging and passing parts of Reynard's complaint.
 

Interestingly, it doesn't appear that Reynard ever attempted to claim that. It now appears that Reynard is claiming that there exists some amount of unnecessary 'bloat' in the description of the text which can be removed from the text without dividing it and which would leave the text in its essential parts unchanged. That is a quite different claim, and one which I also reject on different grounds.

Well, it is more that we are veering into two different discussions 9which threads are wont to do). One is about completeness, the definition thereof, and whether it is achievable within a certain limit (200 pages). I disagree that Basic plus Expert is not a complete game, but that's purely subjective so not worth arguing over. the other discussion is about why the books are as big as they are, which I contend has more to do with "bloat" (a term which i freely admit to being vague0 than with rules complexity. As a tnagent to that second discussion is the question of could I, Reynard, former RPG freelancer, create a 200- page "complete" D&D.

That last bit is at least testable.
 

Grab the online SRD and layout it under 200 pages if can.

Also be thankful that D&D books ain't as large as the latest HERO books. Those are scary.
 

Grab the online SRD and layout it under 200 pages if can.

Anyone got a link to the 3.5 srd in text or rtf format?

Also be thankful that D&D books ain't as large as the latest HERO books. Those are scary.

I love Hero. Champions is my favorite game. But I can't quite bring myself to buy this given the monstrous 5E volume I still have sitting on my shelf.
 

I don't know -- I look back at the 3rd edition early days of 300 page books, then look at my measly 160-page Player's handbook 3, larger print included, and feel robbed. :) Books are geeting smaller page counts with larger print, TV shows are losing minutes again (anyone actually TIME their favorite half-hour comedy lately versus about two years ago?) and I'm getting annoyed that people are charging higher price for less and less actual content. A freaking hour-long TV show in the late 70's was FIFTY minutes long!!! You're lucky if it's still 40 minutes...

Back to the books, though, I'm the opposite -- I want my money's worth, and that ain't what it used to be.
 
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