Can we go back to smaller books?

Incorrect.

The 1981 editions of the Basic and Expert rulebooks each weighed in at 64 pages (128 pages total), cover levels 1-14 and is, IMO, a complete game.

The booklets are littered with illustrations, examples of play, and avoid small font sizes. Underground and wilderness adventures are addressed, all spells, monsters and magic items are included.

It is amazing how far the modern RPG (and D&D in particular) has degenerated into the massive bloat that we see today.

You know, I have these at home. I think my basic set was from 81 (yellow dice) and the expert set was from 82 or maybe early 83 (blue dice). The pages of mine are falling out of the staples.

It's amazing to me that you think that either is or is together a complete game. We didn't consider it a complete game then. I was like, "What, you mean elves can't have clerics? Do they have to go to humans when they need miracles or healing performed?", not to mention the obvious, "What happens when you are 15th level?"
 

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Did you actually buy the Pathfinder book? If you did, then you've shot yourself in the foot on this score, because by buying it, you gave a tacit agreement to Paizo that you are okay with the size of the book.

I haven't. Every time I go to buy it at the game store, I waffle -- not because of the price (RPGs are cheap) but because it is a massive, unweildy tome that is going to have to get passed around the table alot (my players are not going to buy it -- they are just that sort).
 

But why should it? D&D simply isn't that game. It's like bemoaning the fact that McDonald's doesn't have Bananas Foster and Champagne on their menu. Why should they when there are completely legitimate, alternate choices that provide the exact same thing. If you really want Bananas Foster and Champagne, it seems incredibly strange that you would refuse to order them simply because they don't come wrapped in wax paper with the golden arches printed on it.

You seem to be intentionally ignoring the fact that D&D has done this in the past, while also failing to argue why it would be impossible for it to be done with modern D&D.
 

It's amazing to me that you think that either is or is together a complete game. We didn't consider it a complete game then. I was like, "What, you mean elves can't have clerics? Do they have to go to humans when they need miracles or healing performed?", not to mention the obvious, "What happens when you are 15th level?"

Come on now. That's like saying AD&D was incomplete because elves couldn't be assassins or 3.0 was incomplete because there were no rules for 21st level.
 

You seem to be intentionally ignoring the fact that D&D has done this in the past
I'm not ignoring anything. The D&D of 2010 is not the D&D of 1974. The past is irrelevant to my point (see below).

while also failing to argue why it would be impossible for it to be done with modern D&D.
Not impossible, unnecessary.

There is no reason D&D needs to be a rules-lite RPG when 1) There are plenty of people who like the more complex versions; and 2) There are plenty of other options for people who prefer rules-lite fantasy RPGs available.

Why insist that D&D become something it's not, when the thing you want is already available (just with another trademark logo on the cover)?
 

Check out 'The Adventure' chapter in the 1E PHB. Players are educated here about the possibility of traps of various types that are designed to injure/kill, confine, or channel thier characters.

None of which addresses my point.

The nuts and bolts of trap operation was left to the creativity of the DM.

Indeed. Now that is my point. Alot of things were left to the creativity of the DM, and if you had creative DMs of excellent judgment and good rules smithing ability then so much the better. But the problem here is that at some point, you can't claim that you've left things entirely up to the DM and also provided a complete set of rules. If you could, then the following is a complete set of rules:

"Make something up."

There, I've condensed all of D&D to 3 words, much less 200 pages. So at some arbitrary point I think we both agree that its not complete until you've provided more flesh than "Make something up." We might not agree exactly what that point is, but I think we agree it exists.

One could run traps just fine without ever looking at a published module. The idea of needing every minute detail of game mechanical operation spelled out in black and white is a more recent one in rpgs. Left to think for themselves, DMs came up with all types of interesting and creative ways to mechanically run traps.

Or, they didn't. I suspect we'll find lots of people who hate traps as a concept precisely because they didn't agree that thier DM always came up with all types of interesting mechanics for running traps. And I think you are vastly underestimating the reliance the average DM had on published examples of traps to nudge them in the proper D&Dish direction, or even the amount of agreement you'd get that published modules always handled traps in mechanically interesting ways.

Talking with other gamers back then I don't recall a lot of hopelessly lost DMs who had no idea how a trap was supposed to work. I suppose the reason for this was that there wasn't a rulebook set suitable for weightlifting that spelled out the 'right' way to do things.

No, I suspect the reason for this was the vast amount of supplemental material that was published on the subject of traps and communicated orally to players by DM who had prior experience with the published material (directly or indirectly) in lui of having it spelled out in some official examples. I think you are dealing with a fairly large and complex body of assumed and effective rules which weren't formal written rules. There is a very difficult question here involving supporting a new player. What supports him better, "Silence on a subject in order to keep the size of the book down, or addressing a topic so that he has some actual rules support at the cost of increased scope of the rules"?

I am, once again, pointing out that defacto rules of play ('house rules') are at least as burdensome on play as the formal written rules of play, and for my money they are more burdensome because no one necessarily really has a clear idea of what those rules are. When you leave an area of the game to 'make something up', you are saving paper, but you aren't necessarily making the game simpler.

Plus, you are ignoring that over time, as more supplemental material was published and more and more tables house rules converged (by using the supplemental material) that the scope of what people considered 'D&D' necessarily increased. Critical hits are a good example of this. So is weapon specialization. So is the barbarian class. Third edition tried to capture all the idea people associated with 'core D&D' in to its core rules, even where the rule itself was not a core rule of the prior edition. The rules expanded because the earlier editions were percieved as 'incomplete'.
 

There is no reason D&D needs to be a rules-lite RPG when 1) There are plenty of people who like the more complex versions; and 2) There are plenty of other options for people who prefer rules-lite fantasy RPGs available.

"Rules light" has nothing to do with it. Reducing the page count of 3E to 200 pages would not necessitate the reduction of its complexity in the slightest -- it would merely require the streamlining of the presentation of the rules and the reduction of the number of examples of certain features (10 pages of traps can be reduced to 1 page quite easily -- it's basically what 4E's Page 42 does).

There's a lot of over explanantion, white space, repetition and just plain bloat. It actually makes the game harder to use and more difficult to play because explaing something in a paragraph that can be explained in a sentence does more to obscure the intent than clarify it.

I think modern books are big not because the game is "rules heavy" enough to warrant it, but because, quite frankly, gamers are cheap and if the books were slimmer, with less fully painted illustrations, gamers would feel like they were being cheated, despite the fact that the value of the game comes from its playability.
 


Come on now. That's like saying AD&D was incomplete because elves couldn't be assassins or 3.0 was incomplete because there were no rules for 21st level.

Well, yes, those would be to the point.

Note that in 1e, there were rules for 21st level and 101st level and 2121st level. The leveling rules were open ended. So, it wouldn't at all be surprising for a 1e player encountering a closed ended set of rules for leveling up characters to consider them incomplete until this was addressed.

And as for my example, that's exactly why I rejected the D&D basic rules as incomplete at the time. Now you seem to be arguing against my experience and trying to suggest to me it didn't happen.

D&D set arbitrary restrictions on what was possible that did not seem to conform to the game world they described (or at least, which I wanted to describe, though at the time I probably wouldn't have seen these as separate ideas). A game which couldn't describe the world I was trying to describe was incomplete. This was assumed, and was the driving force behind the creation of systems which would be capable of describing every possible world (or so it was hoped). D&D did not seem to me capable of describing a generic fantasy world (no elvish clerics among other things). Hense, the near immediate adoption of AD&D which seemed (at the time and for alot of reasons) to be 'a more complete rules set'.
 


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