Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[AGGEMAM]

... falls ...

You mean drops, right?

 

[mikebr99]

You mean drops, right?

Sure... drops, falls, 'is killed'... he an ex-parrot!!!

 

[AGGEMAM]

Sure... drops, falls, 'is killed'... he an ex-parrot!!!

Terminology is important here.

'Drops' is a condition described in the cleave feat description.

'Falls' is an entirely different thing.

Anyway, I totally agree with you on the topic, though.

Any time you cause a creature to drop with a melee weapon, you can use the Cleave and/or the Great Cleave feats, regardless of whether it is on your turn or not.

 

[mikebr99]

Here is an answer from the Sage that should help:

Hello. I have a quick question.

There are tons of discussions on the boards that are arguing about weather certain things can be used as an AoO. I need this clearified I am totaly confused now. What can be used as an AoO? And if strike a weapon can't and dissarm can, why?

Thank you,
Wolf

An AoO is melee attack. Therefore, you can do anything as an AoO that you can do as a melee attack (such as disarms or trips). Check the action descriptions in Chapter 8 of the PH.

Strike a weapon: You do this as a melee attack (see the first line of the action description on page 163 of the PH.

Disarm: You also do this as a melee attack (see page 137 of the PH).

Skip Williams
RPG R&D



I wrote you before asking what attacks could be made as AoOs. You said anything that is one melee attack so that would include attack, strike a weapon, trip, dissarm, grapple, and any others I failed to mention

Correct.

So... any attack is possible during an AoO!!!


http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=135;t=009970;p=

 

[Tony Vargas]

So... any attack is possible during an AoO!!!

Well, any /melee/ attack, but, yes, of course.

 

[mikebr99]

Well, any /melee/ attack, but, yes, of course.

So... then you agree??

You are going to let your players cleave if their AoOs drop someone???

 

[Tony Vargas]

So... then you agree??

You are going to let your players cleave if their AoOs drop someone???

I agree with what you said - that any melee attack can be used as an AoO.

It has nothing to do with Cleave, though, as Cleave is not a type of attack, but a feat that lets you follow through on a successful attack with another of the same type (really, for all intents and purposes, the same attack, as it takes all the same modifiers).

And, actually, I've never said that I wouldn't let my players cleave off an AoO, only that they'd have to have a legitimate target for the attack. Since the original attack was an AoO, the menue of valid targets is limitted to those who are provoking AoOs.

Now, if you run the initiative system strictly, that'd mean you'd never have a legitimate target, but I'd be willing to overlook that technicality, especially as I tend to have masses of enemies act simultaneously, in any case.

 

[Forrester]

Well, only if they cleave into someone who is also provoking an AoO.

I mean, c'mon! You've read the above posts. You'd have to be either a brain-dead troglodyte or a troll lacking any sense of self-respect whatsoever (kreynolds begins humming to himself innocently in the distance) to allow otherwise!



Be honest. As has been shown, By The Rules, it would be a good tactic for a cleric to summon a dire rat (or whatever) and order it to charge *PAST* your Big Dumb Cleaving Fighter (BDCF) in order for BDCF to get an AoO on it so he could get a free attack into some big beastie.

Better yet, summon d4+1 of them -- if the fighter has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, he can get d4+1 extra attacks on the big beastie per round!

This, to be blunt, is retarded rules manipulation of the most disgusting order, and the reason it doesn't make sense is that the Big Beastie did nothing to provoke an attack. Can we agree about that?

 

[mikebr99]

Well, only if they cleave into someone who is also provoking an AoO.

I mean, c'mon! You've read the above posts. You'd have to be either a brain-dead troglodyte or a troll lacking any sense of self-respect whatsoever (kreynolds begins humming to himself innocently in the distance) to allow otherwise!



Be honest. As has been shown, By The Rules, it would be a good tactic for a cleric to summon a dire rat (or whatever) and order it to charge *PAST* your Big Dumb Cleaving Fighter (BDCF) in order for BDCF to get an AoO on it so he could get a free attack into some big beastie.

Better yet, summon d4+1 of them -- if the fighter has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, he can get d4+1 extra attacks on the big beastie per round!

This, to be blunt, is retarded rules manipulation of the most disgusting order, and the reason it doesn't make sense is that the Big Beastie did nothing to provoke an attack. Can we agree about that?

Yes.. we CAN agree that he didn't do anything to provoke that attacks.

But I have yet to see anyone try this tactic (summon rats) in my games. But some of my players do read the threads here, so I might.

I will find other ways to nerf the bag 'O' rats tactic (maybe use it on them...) if they do try it!! The cleave after ANY melee attack that drops an opponent is legal, within the rules and should stand!!

Now... I better get off this soap box before I fall off and hurt myself...

 

[kreynolds]

You'd have to be either a brain-dead troglodyte or a troll lacking any sense of self-respect whatsoever (kreynolds begins humming to himself innocently in the distance) to allow otherwise!

I'm not humming innocently. I openly stand by my opinion.

Be honest. As has been shown, By The Rules, it would be a good tactic for a cleric to summon a dire rat (or whatever) and order it to charge *PAST* your Big Dumb Cleaving Fighter (BDCF) in order for BDCF to get an AoO on it so he could get a free attack into some big beastie.

Better yet, summon d4+1 of them -- if the fighter has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, he can get d4+1 extra attacks on the big beastie per round!

This, to be blunt, is retarded rules manipulation of the most disgusting order, and the reason it doesn't make sense is that the Big Beastie did nothing to provoke an attack. Can we agree about that?

I'll tell ya' what I'll be honest about. Apparently, when every DM out there went to the Great Player Lottery, reached into the magic bucket to draw their chips that would assign them their players, nearly every single one of you got screwed, saddled with "retarded" players that would take advantage of such "retarded" rules so that they can pull off the "bucket o' whateverthehell" tactic. Why do I say this? Quite simple, really. None of my players have ever tried it, and I doubt they would. Why? I imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that their mindsets are higher than that of a 13 year old. Then again, I could just be really lucky.

Let me put it to you this way. Murder is against the law, meaning there is a rule that says you are not supposed to do it. However, you can't be tried for murder if there isn't a body. In the eyes of the victim, this is probably a really "retarded" law, as I imagine they would want their killer brought to justice, but does that change anything? No. You can still break the law, and if you play your cards right, you can get away with it, all because you took advantage of a "retarded" law with a gaping loophole in it.

Now, I ask you, would you want that guy at your gaming table, knowing what he's capable of? Probably not. Guess what? He's not sitting at my table either.