Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[Tony Vargas]

This will be very difficult for arcane spell casters since most of the lower level summoned monsters are unintelligent Celestial/Fiendish animals.

The minimum INT of a creature with the Celestial or Fiendish template is 3. Not bright, but able to understand commands in it's own language.

 

[Jens]

Originally posted by Jens: I disagree. The creature doesn't die, doesn't remember what has happened, is in no way affected by having been summoned. I'd say Summon Monster has about as many moral implications as Fireball.

Originally posted by AGGEMAM: Correct, that is the general mindset for an evil character.

I actually think I described the intention behind describing Summoning as

Summoning: The spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place the character designates. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or dropped to 0 hit points. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

To me, this basically states that a summoned creature comes out of "nowhere", goes back to "nowhere" and for all practical purposes does not exist outside the period of its summoning. I could very well be wrong about this, but I think part of the reason the text above was written is to make summoning morally acceptable. I can't see how the primary/default/expected use (to attack one's opponents) of a Good spell (SM is a [Good] spell when used to summon a Celestial creature) can be even morally ambiguous.

I agree that charming/dominating someone is highly questionable morally, but summoning a couple of Celestial Badgers to fight an Ogre? Some/all of the CBs are likely to "die", but since this is surely the intended use of a Good spell, how can that be a 'bad' act?

Edit: Forgot the "" around "die"

 

[KarinsDad]

Summoned creatures don't "die" when they are reduced to zeor hit points. As outsiders, they are returned to their original plane of existence. That is all.

You mean like the summoned creatures from Summon Natures Ally X spells which are from this plane? Are they all outsiders? Are all of the creatures in the PHB outsiders for Summon Monster X spells (not sure, I thought maybe the SRD was changed to only have outsiders, gotta go look that up).

How do you know the creature you summoned wasn't busy at the time you summoned it?

Whether it dies or not is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that you ripped it away from where it was and forced it to perform tasks for you. If it "dies", it reforms in 24 hours. The caster doesn't care that it lost those 24 hours.

Sounds like slavery to me.

Sounds amoral to me.

A lot more than taking a bunch of dead bones and making them dance.

 

[kreynolds]

This thread has degenerated into bickering nonsense. Where's the Hoopa-Stink and Colon Blow (Ex) when you need it?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I actually think I described the intention behind describing Summoning asTo me, this basically states that a summoned creature comes out of "nowhere", goes back to "nowhere" and for all practical purposes does not exist outside the period of its summoning. I could very well be wrong about this, but I think part of the reason the text above was written is to make summoning morally acceptable. I can't see how the primary/default/expected use (to attack one's opponents) of a Good spell (SM is a [Good] spell when used to summon a Celestial creature) can be even morally ambiguous.

That is quite clearly the intent.

Summon spells are intended as combat spells and the players are not supposed to worry over the lives of the summoned creatures. For practical purposes the universe photocopies a summoned creature from its platonic ideal and tosses it into a metaphysical recycle bin when the spell is over.

You are not supposed to fret over slowly denuding the multiverse of Celestical Badgers or whether baby Celestial Badgers miss their mommy and daddy.

Yes, even Nature's Allies come from nowhere and go to nowhere. It is not an odd thing for a universe with magic in it.

Amoral is exactly the right word. Morality doesn't enter into the equation one way or the other.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Summoned Creatures

I can just see them picketing the local dungeon...

 

[SableWyvern]

Ahhhh....

Excuse me.

Sincere apologies, I thought I was in the Cleave thread. My mistake.

 

[Thanee]

I really like your interpretation of the Cleave feat, Tony!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storm Raven]

You mean like the summoned creatures from Summon Natures Ally X spells which are from this plane? Are they all outsiders? Are all of the creatures in the PHB outsiders for Summon Monster X spells (not sure, I thought maybe the SRD was changed to only have outsiders, gotta go look that up).

All of the Summon Monster spells summon outsiders. The Summon Nature's Ally spells are only open to druids (and to a lesser extent, rangers), who are presumed to 'know best' what is necessary to be done, that is why they are druids and rangers.

How do you know the creature you summoned wasn't busy at the time you summoned it?

It doesn't matter. When the spell is finished, it is immediately sent back to where it came from. Of course, since in traditional theology (which is what the D&D theology is based on) these sorts of creatures have no independent will, being merely constructs representative of their ethos or element.

Whether it dies or not is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that you ripped it away from where it was and forced it to perform tasks for you. If it "dies", it reforms in 24 hours. The caster doesn't care that it lost those 24 hours.

You miss an important point. The creatures being summoned are, for the most part Celestial or Fiendish creatures (with a nhandful of other options, all outsiders of various types, including elementals). In traditional theology, this type of creature has no free will (especially Celestials, akin to angels, which explicitly have no free will, existing entirely to serve). This means that having them perform tasks for you (to the extent this is in accord with the precepts of alignment, i.e. Celestials are used for generally good purposes) is what they are intended for.

Sounds like slavery to me.

Only if you assume (incorrectly) that they have free will and are anything other than alignment or elemental constructs.

Sounds amoral to me.

Only if you don't understand what the summoned creatures from the Summon Monster spells actually are.

 

[mikebr99]

Can we get this back on topic??

And will you just agree that you can indeed cleave if your tagets falls during ANY attack (including an AoO)??