Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[mikebr99]

You know I deleted my post because they don't have to be opponents anyway, the feat just says creature, so my point was irrelevant.

I saw that... to late though. Did you want me to delete mine also??

 

[AGGEMAM]

I saw that... to late though. Did you want me to delete mine also??

No .. it is good to know people make mistakes and even better to know they notice them first themselves.

(I'm using royal plural form here.)

 

[kreynolds]

You are arguing that either we must have AoOs with all the quirks in the present rules or no AoOs whatsoever, and there is no possible inbetween.

No. I am arguing that both tactics are the same thing. You can't have one without the other. It wouldn't make sense and would stink of "unreasonable illogical rule-0" if you did.

That is obviously wrong.

Apparently not, since I don't think it is, but thanks for trying to end the discussion with your omnipotent knowledge.

The initiative only matters if you care if a character or creature lives or dies.

Why should I care? It's called life. You live and you die. You can't decide when. You don't when it's coming. You don't make the rules and you certainly don't write the rules, so when death comes a' knockin', you just gotta answer the door. Death isn't even a factor of this discussion. It's just a byproduct, and a predictable and logical one at that.

Now, from a player's perspective, death always seems unfair and generally leads to the accusation of "broken rules".

In other words, it only matters if you care about the results.

That's not what this is all about. This topic isn't about logical results. This topic is about a rule that has the potential to lead to results that end in death (at least, that's what it has degraded into), a situation that is not only encounter in an AoO, but in fact, can be seen during normal combat, which is why I argued that both tactics mentioned above are the same.

You can bandaid over that problem or you can look at what actually causes it.

Yes, I bandaided the "bucket o' snails problem", which I think is a much bigger problem that this measley little one. My bandaiding of Cleave, when placed next to this topic, is something else entirely. What you claim bandaiding doesn't fix, I don't see as a problem in the first place, as it can happen during a standard attack anyways.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

No. I am arguing that both tactics are the same thing. You can't have one without the other. It wouldn't make sense and would stink of "unreasonable illogical rule-0" if you did.

I see no basis for this assertion. You certainly did not provide it.

I believe it is possible to rewrite the rules such that they would be more clear and as easy to use as the present ones, while not allowing a Cleave on AoO. Please explain why you believe the result would be unreasonable or illogical.

 

[mikebr99]

How Cleave works...

Attack does enough damage to make bad guy fall, weapon continues into the next bad guy.


Things that initiate the above:

1)Start of std. attack.
2)One of full round attacks.
3)some derivitive of the above.
4)start of an AoO.

 

[Tony Vargas]

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So, it's alright to "gain more attacks against a given opponent in the round than you could hae gained had you been facing that opponent alone" using cleave as part of your attack action, but not if you do it off an AoO?

Actually, no. That's the great thing about the ruling - it not only 'fixes' the AoO issue, but also nixxes the much more abusive Whirlwind-Attack-Great-Cleave ("bag 'o rats") combo.

The idea of Cleave is that you can off a lesser foe without trouble, not that offing a lesser foe super-charges you into a quisinart of death.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

The idea of Cleave is that you can off a lesser foe without trouble

This is NOT the idea of cleave!!!

You have already off'd the lesser foe by the time this feat kicks in.

 

[kreynolds]

Please explain why you believe the result would be unreasonable or illogical.

1) I can hit and kill your friend, and I can cleave into you.
2) I can hit and kill your friend, but I cannot cleave into you.

That's the basis of your argument. You have provided no logical reason as to why you can have one but no the other. The only reason you have offered is "Someone could die". That's a pretty weak argument, especially when considering that...

1) Cleave functions on any melee attack that drops your opponent, period, end of story, no argument here.
2) An AoO is an attack.

 

[Tony Vargas]

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This is NOT the idea of cleave!!!

You have already off'd the lesser foe by the time this feat kicks in.

Sure it is. You off somebody, and, because it was so easy to off them, you can keep going.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can you cleave after making an AoO?

The idea of Cleave is that you can off a lesser foe without trouble, not that offing a lesser foe super-charges you into a quisinart of death.

Funny. I always thought the idea of Cleave was hitting someone else because you just cut someone in half, red-misted them, or pounded them into the ground. Nah. Can't be. That'd just be silly.