Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[Storyteller01]

This explains why i've never seen a ranged flaking SA build...

 

[TheEvil]

It's fairly explicit.

"When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner."

When do you get a +2 Flanking bonus?

1. Is your opponent threatened by a character or creature?
If yes,
2. Is that character or creature friendly to you?
If yes,
3. Is that character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite border or opposite corner?
If yes,
4. Are you making a melee attack?
If yes, you get a +2 Flanking bonus.

If you are not making a melee attack, condition 4 is not true, and you don't get a +2 Flanking bonus.

For the entirety of the round except for the part where you are making a melee attack, condition 4 is not true.

So, the 'where it says that' is in the Flanking section of the Combat chapter in the PHB.

-Hyp.

Though your words oft hold wisdom, I must respectfully disagree with you. That is simply when you get the bonus for flanking. It no more says that you are only flanking when you attack then the second paragraph says you only flank in melee.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Though your words oft hold wisdom, I must respectfully disagree with you. That is simply when you get the bonus for flanking. It no more says that you are only flanking when you attack then the second paragraph says you only flank in melee.

But Hypersmurf answered your question--take a look:

Artoomis what you missed is that the Flanking bonus is only gained during their attack. Not during the whole round.

Show me where it says that.

So really, you may have just asked the wrong question there

 

[TheEvil]

So really, you may have just asked the wrong question there

Okay, let me try that question again:

Where is it written that you are only flanking during your attack?

(what I get for contradicting Hypersmurf...)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where is it written that you are only flanking during your attack?

And that's what the whole thread is about.

Does flanking always provide a +2 bonus?

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At the top of the room, we have a dwarven rogue and a human ranger standing on opposite sides of an orc. Both have shortswords. When the dwarf attacks, he gets a +2 flanking bonus and can sneak attack.

In the middle of the room, we have a gnomish rogue with a shortsword attacking an orc. His buddy the elven rogue is some distance away with a bow, but they satisfy the line test. Neither of them gain a +2 flanking bonus - the elf is not making a melee attack, and the gnome has no ally who threatens. Can either of them sneak attack?

At the bottom of the room, we have a halfling rogue with a shortsword attacking a third orc. The ranger's animal companion, a dog, is in the corridor outside, on the other side of a wall. The halfling and the dog satisfy the line test. The halfling gains no +2 flanking bonus. Can he sneak attack?

Let's say a Wall of Force separates the ranger from the orc at the top, but the orc doesn't know it. The ranger no longer threatens the orc, so the dwarf gets no +2 flanking bonus. Can he still sneak attack? Does the answer change if the orc knows the Wall of Force is there?

-Hyp.

 

[Starglim]

Krelios' quote makes it quite plain that you can neither receive a flanking bonus nor provide one to your ally using a ranged weapon.

 

[Dimwhit]

You're missing the point... using a whip to gain a flanking bonus is not an exception.

The rule is that you must make a melee attack, and your ally must threaten.

I thought the main point of this thread was that you couldn't threat with a ranged weapon. I'm cool with your rule here. Sounds like we agree that you can't flanked with a ranged attack.

 

[TheEvil]

To Starglim: You would be astounded by what isn't considered obvious.

To Hypersmurf: No. No. No. Doubt it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Krelios' quote makes it quite plain that you can neither receive a flanking bonus nor provide one to your ally using a ranged weapon.

It does indeed. (Well, almost. It makes it plain that you cannot receive a flanking bonus using a ranged weapon. It makes it plain that you cannot provide one to your ally unless you threaten. There exist published examples - the Peerless Archer from the Silver Marches sourcebook, for example - of characters who can threaten with a ranged weapon. These characters cannot receive a flanking bonus - since they cannot make a melee attack with a bow - but they can provide one to an ally, since they threaten.)

In most of the examples above, the rogues do not get a flanking bonus. Can they sneak attack?

I thought the main point of this thread was that you couldn't threat with a ranged weapon. I'm cool with your rule here. Sounds like we agree that you can't flanked with a ranged attack.

The statement you quoted doesn't address flanking with a ranged attack; it addresses gaining a flanking bonus with a ranged attack.

Whether or not the two are the same is the debate that this thread revolves around.

To Hypersmurf: No. No. No. Doubt it.

So - the gnome can sneak attack when he flanks an opponent. Since your answer is that he does not flank the orc (when his ally, the elf with a bow, is directly opposite him but fifteen feet away), what criteria are you using to determine that he is not flanking?

-Hyp.

 

[beepeearr]

Funny, but I've been DMing 3rd since it first came out, and I never realized I was handling flanking wrong, I've moved a few times and gamed for quite a few different groups because of it, and none of them have ever called me on it. I've always allowed ranged attacks to benefit from flanking, it just seemed like common sense. I always thought crossfire from multiple attackers should be just as difficult to defend against as attacks from multiple melee attackers. If nothing else you would think a "flanking" ranged attack against an opponent engaged in melee would be difficult enough to defend against, that the ranged attack would gain the bonus. Think I'll stick to the way we've been doing it. It may not follow the rules, but I still think it makes more sense.

Give it a try sometime, have two friends stand ten feet apart from you on either side, and have them start throwing rocks at you, then have them stand directly in front of you and see which one results in you being hit more.