Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[atom crash]

The flanking section requires the attacker to be making a melee attack in order to receive the "flanking bonus." This distinction is important.

The flanking section does not say "you must make a melee attack in order to flank." It says "you must make a melee attack in order to receive a flanking bonus."

To bring up an example that has been used in the past, a prone target takes a -4 penalty on melee attacks and cannot use a ranged weapon except for a crossbow. If the prone character does not make a melee attack, thus not taking the -4 penalty, does he cease to be prone? Or is he still prone whether or not he makes a melee attack and therefore actually uses the penalty?

 

[Dimwhit]

The flanking section requires the attacker to be making a melee attack in order to receive the "flanking bonus." This distinction is important.

The flanking section does not say "you must make a melee attack in order to flank." It says "you must make a melee attack in order to receive a flanking bonus."

To bring up an example that has been used in the past, a prone target takes a -4 penalty on melee attacks and cannot use a ranged weapon except for a crossbow. If the prone character does not make a melee attack, thus not taking the -4 penalty, does he cease to be prone? Or is he still prone whether or not he makes a melee attack and therefore actually uses the penalty?

No offense, but that's not at all a good example. A character is prone until he takes a move action to stand up.

The entire section on flanking ONLY mentions melee attacks. The flanking bonus is the benefit (or one of them) to flanking. With a couple notable exceptions, you always get the bonus when you flank. But no where in the flanking section does it allow for a ranged attack. Only melee.

 

[atom crash]

No offense, but that's not at all a good example. A character is prone until he takes a move action to stand up.

It's a good example for exactly that reason. A character can be prone yet not receive any of the mechanical penalites for being prone. A sleeping character is asleep until he wakes up, whether or not he receives any penalties for being asleep. If he isn't forced to make a Listen check, thus receiving a -10 penalty for being alseep, that doesn't mean he is no longer asleep.

A character is flanking until he moves -- or others move around him -- in such a way that he no longer satisfies the line test. Even if he doesn't make a melee attack and thus receive the flanking bonus, he's flanking. The fact that he doesn't receive a flanking bonus doesn't mean he's no longer flanking; it just means he's not getting the bonus.

 

[Falkus]

Well it doesn't say any melee weapon in the text I quoted, it says an armed melee attack, and an armed attack must be able to cause lethal damage which the whip doesn't.

Lasher, whip-dagger.

It doesn't contradict the rules at all when you look at the diagrams and the text together, and as they support the 3.0 rules I don't see a problem. Anyway...if it was posted 2 months after the release of the 3.5 ruleset, which was being written up to 1 year before release I don't see why it wouldn't be based on the 3.5 ruleset. Obviously they thought it needed clarification after seeing threads like this

It does contradict the rules, and I will refuse to listen to the idiot who writes that article who apparantly doesn't own a copy of the Player's Handbook. It is clearly stated that you don't have to threaten to gain a flanking bonus, only the guy opposite you has to threaten, which is why my lasher can get a +2 bonus and sneak attack. Pure and simple, anything that says otherwise is a contradiction of the rules, and can safely be ignored.

 

[RigaMortus2]

No offense, but that's not at all a good example. A character is prone until he takes a move action to stand up.

The entire section on flanking ONLY mentions melee attacks. The flanking bonus is the benefit (or one of them) to flanking. With a couple notable exceptions, you always get the bonus when you flank. But no where in the flanking section does it allow for a ranged attack. Only melee.

It's not a good example because it just disproves what you are stating...

I think it is spelled out quite nicely and easy to follow.

When making a melee attack against an opponent who is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border, you get +2 to hit them. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would personally never allow for flanked ranged attacks, but according to RAW you can flank with a ranged weapon.

 

[Dimwhit]

It's not a good example because it just disproves what you are stating...

I think it is spelled out quite nicely and easy to follow.

When making a melee attack against an opponent who is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border, you get +2 to hit them. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would personally never allow for flanked ranged attacks, but according to RAW you can flank with a ranged weapon.

I still don't see how you can say that. Where in the flanking rules does it say you can flank (and get any kind of bonus or sneak attack--or provide said bonus or sneak to an ally) with a ranged weapon?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Lasher, whip-dagger.

We are discussing 3.5, not 3.0

 

[RigaMortus2]

I still don't see how you can say that. Where in the flanking rules does it say you can flank (and get any kind of bonus or sneak attack--or provide said bonus or sneak to an ally) with a ranged weapon?

It does not specifically say you can flank with a ranged weapon. Just as it does not specifically say you CAN'T flank with a ranged weapon. So we have to dig a little and figure out what conditions must be met in order to be considered flanking. This is figured out when we look at the line test.

 

[Dimwhit]

It's a good example for exactly that reason. A character can be prone yet not receive any of the mechanical penalites for being prone. A sleeping character is asleep until he wakes up, whether or not he receives any penalties for being asleep. If he isn't forced to make a Listen check, thus receiving a -10 penalty for being alseep, that doesn't mean he is no longer asleep.

A character is flanking until he moves -- or others move around him -- in such a way that he no longer satisfies the line test. Even if he doesn't make a melee attack and thus receive the flanking bonus, he's flanking. The fact that he doesn't receive a flanking bonus doesn't mean he's no longer flanking; it just means he's not getting the bonus.

Yeah, and if a 100 dollar bill is lying in the road and I don't pick it up, I'm still not $100 richer.

Look, two people can stand 30' away from an opponent on either side and be flanking that opponent. But there will be no bonus, no sneak attack, etc. They're just standing on opposite sides.

We're talking about what it takes to be able to sneak, get the +2 bonus, etc. within the game rules.

Let me put it this way, there is NO way within the rules to get a +2 to hit or deal sneak attack damage with a range weapon by using the flanking rules. The only way you're going to sneak with a ranged weapon is if the enemy is denied his dex. Can't happen through flanking. Anything else is kind of moot to this discussion. At least the part of this discussion that I'm trying to argue.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Since we are continuing to split semantics here.. one word that people are skipping in the glossary entry for flanking:

"To be directly on the other side of a character.."

Which Mirriam Webster Online defines as:

"b : in immediate physical contact"

AKA 1B2
not 1 B2

Remember, you can be flanking in the English sense without Flanking in the D20 sense.
You gain the Flanking Bonus and the ability to use Sneak Attack only when making a melee attack from directly on the other side of an opponent who is being threatened by another character.

Hypersmurphs set of conditions make sense, the only twist is the instant State issue with the Formian text.

but according to RAW you can flank with a ranged weapon.

I fail to see where any of the RAW quotes support this position.
"When making a melee attack..."
"When directly on the other side.."

Where is the "when the line of the attack would strike an ally if the opponent was not present.." or the "when attacking in the manner of your choosing.." in the RAW?

I am also kind of wondering.. does this ever actually come up in play?