Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[TheEvil]

It's not a good example because it just disproves what you are stating...

I think it is spelled out quite nicely and easy to follow.

When making a melee attack against an opponent who is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border, you get +2 to hit them. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would personally never allow for flanked ranged attacks, but according to RAW you can flank with a ranged weapon.

Actually, the only thing that is written explicitly is what melee does. Nothing whatsoever is said about range, but lets take a look at all the available data with comentary:

FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

Nothing much to say here that hasn't already been said, but I will point out that it only explicitly talks about melee attacks in the section.

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is . . . Melee Ranged
Dazzled –1 –1
Entangled –2(1) –2(1)
Flanking defender +2 —
Invisible +2(2) +2(2)
On higher ground +1 +0
Prone –4 —(3)
Shaken or frightened –2 –2
Squeezing through a space –4 –4
1 An entangled character also takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity, which may affect his attack roll.
2 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded.
3 Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.

Under the Flanking Defender row, melee gets a +2, ranged has a dash. By comparison, On Higher Ground give +1 to melee and +0 to ranged. Prone gives -4 to melee and a dash with an exception for crossbows to ranged. Given what is explicitly said under prone and the fact the having higher ground says +0 and not dash where you can take the attack but get no bonus, I would say that the precident is that a dash indicates a non-applicable action. You can't get a ranged flank.

flank: To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking.

The glossary indicates first what consititutes a flank, something the combat section should have done as well, in my opinion. It doesn't say that only melee flankers get a +2, it says flanking attackers, period. The verbage in first sentence also implies a close proximity to the defender, but that is less clear.

Lastly, all 3 examples given in the diagrams of the PHB show only melee examples. I would think that if a ranged flank were allowed, they would have given some kind of exmaple of it.

So, in total, all available flanking information talks about melee attacks. In order to infer that ranged flanking is allowed, you must follow the devilish line of reasoning that anything not expressly forbidden is allowed. That way maddness lies.

 

[DonTadow]

It does not specifically say you can flank with a ranged weapon. Just as it does not specifically say you CAN'T flank with a ranged weapon. So we have to dig a little and figure out what conditions must be met in order to be considered flanking. This is figured out when we look at the line test.

But it does specifically say you can't flank with a ranged weapon. By including the word melee they are excluding the word range, thus eliminating ranged attacks from being able to flank.

I think this is a common thing where we confuse the english language with in game terminology. Always a bad combination. There are probably a dozen instances, such as this, that if you input english definations with game terminology you'll be quite confused.

 

[Aaron L]

I would personally never allow for flanked ranged attacks, but according to RAW you can flank with a ranged weapon.

Ok, I agree with everything else you just said, but how did you get that out of the rules? In order to be in "flanking position" you need to threaten your opponent, which you do not do with a ranged weapon.

And just for my benefit, because I think I actually sorta understand the debate this time, let me set up this situation. Two people are standing on either side of a 3rd person, being in "flanking position." One of the people in flanking position is armed with a longsword (A), the other is unarmed (B) (and doesnt have Improved Unarmed Strike). Person A attacks, but doesnt recieve the flanking bonus because person B is not threatening thier opponent. Person B attacks, and DOES recieve the flanking bonus because person B IS threatening thier opponent. But I would consider both to be Flanking (rules term) thier opponent. After all, you cant Flank all by yourself, so both of you must be Flanking or no one is.

But in an case you cant Flank with a ranged weapon. You can stand in flanking position with a ranged weapon, but you cant Flank without either threatening or attacking.

Thats all assuming no special Feats or class abilities or magic or whatever that allows you to threaten with a ranged weapon.
I hope that made sense.

 

[Dimwhit]

But it does specifically say you can't flank with a ranged weapon. By including the word melee they are excluding the word range, thus eliminating ranged attacks from being able to flank.

But of course, they'll point to the line test in the next paragraph and say it allows ranged flanking. What they won't see is that the line test is simply a way to determine if two players (one threatening and the other making a melee attack) are in fact flanking or not. It is not meant for any other purpose. So you are right that ranged is excluded.

 

[Dimwhit]

And just for my benefit, because I think I actually sorta understand the debate this time, let me set up this situation. Two people are standing on either side of a 3rd person, being in "flanking position." One of the people in flanking position is armed with a longsword (A), the other is unarmed (B) (and doesnt have Improved Unarmed Strike). Person A attacks, but doesnt recieve the flanking bonus because person B is not threatening thier opponent. Person B attacks, and DOES recieve the flanking bonus because person B IS threatening thier opponent. But I would consider both to be Flanking (rules term) thier opponent. After all, you cant Flank all by yourself, so both of you must be Flanking or no one is.

Actually, Person B doesn't get the bonus either. The flanker needs to make a melee attack in order to get the bonus. Unarmed attacks without the IUS feat is considered an Unarmed Melee Attack, which is a different attack action than the standard Melee Attack. With the IUS feat, however, both players would get the bonus.

 

[RigaMortus2]

But it does specifically say you can't flank with a ranged weapon. By including the word melee they are excluding the word range, thus eliminating ranged attacks from being able to flank.

I think this is a common thing where we confuse the english language with in game terminology. Always a bad combination. There are probably a dozen instances, such as this, that if you input english definations with game terminology you'll be quite confused.

Some modifiers only apply to melee, some only to range, some to both. Point-Blank Shot only applies to ranged for example. What is the problem with this? A flanking bonus is only added to melee attacks. But flanking occurs when you can draw a line from one creature to another (friendly) creature and that line passes through an enemy.

 

[Aaron L]

Unarmed attacks without the IUS feat is considered an Unarmed Melee Attack, which is a different attack action than the standard Melee Attack.

Are you serious?? Attacking unarmed is considered a seperate action? Where does it spell that out? Ive never read it; I wont doubt you, Id just like to see it.

 

[Dimwhit]

Some modifiers only apply to melee, some only to range, some to both. Point-Blank Shot only applies to ranged for example. What is the problem with this? A flanking bonus is only added to melee attacks. But flanking occurs when you can draw a line from one creature to another (friendly) creature and that line passes through an enemy.

What we're saying is that the Flanking action (to call it an action, which it really isn't) is only applicable with melee. Sure, you can draw the line and tell that you're on the exact opposite side, but you don't get a flank bonus, sneak attack, etc. (nor do you provide it to others). If there is no benefit, you're not 'Flanking,' you're just standing directly on the other side.

 

[RigaMortus2]

What they won't see is that the line test is simply a way to determine if two players (one threatening and the other making a melee attack) are in fact flanking or not.

If those conditions were added to that sentance "(one threatening and the other making a melee attack)" then yes, you would be correct.

Are we arguing RAW or intent? Because by RAW, the rules are quite clear. Intent on the other hand, you can probably go by the FAQ or RotG. I personally play by intent, no matter what the RAW is saying.

 

[Dimwhit]

Are you serious?? Attacking unarmed is considered a seperate action? Where does it spell that out? Ive never read it; I wont doubt you, Id just like to see it.

Totally serious. Took me a while to realize it, too.

Basically, there is no such thing as an 'unarmed melee attack.' Unarmed attacks are not melee attacks. The are unarmed attacks. Two different combat actions.

Attack

Making an attack is a standard action.

Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can...

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and...

Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw...

The Actions in Combat table lists them like this:

Standard Action - AoO
Attack (melee) - No
Attack (ranged) - Yes
Attack (unarmed) - Yes

This shows that an unarmed attack is a different attack action than a melee attack action and the ranged attack action.

It is kind of a weird rule, but it's there.