Pathfinder 1E Can you ready a five foot step?

[delericho]

Per the strict letter of the RAW, I believe DogBackward is right about this - the orc has completed his move action and moved on to his standard action which triggers the Readied action. Because of this, and because actions are considered atomic, he can't "go back" and tack a bit more on to his move - he's finished that action.

On the other hand, the RAW doesn't spell out every possible circumstance. For example, it's generally accepted that it's valid to say "if an opponent comes into reach, I'll attack him" - and have the readied action take place as soon as the opponent enters that first threatened square.

However, as noted above, actions are considered atomic, which means that, by the strict letter of the RAW, the readied action should trigger before the opponent moves - with the absurd consequence that the readied attack fails because the target is not within reach despite the action being specifically readied for that exact condition.

This also means that if the orc doesn't "move then attack" but rather charges, then the readied attack fails (out of reach), the orc covers the full distance (including any five foot step) and gets his attack - because "charge" is an atomic full-round action that cannot be interrupted.

Basically, the Ready action can throw up some absurd situations when the strict letter of RAW is used. The DM should therefore interpret the rules to give the "best fit" of how things would work out. After all, that sort of odd case is exactly why we have DMs in the first place.

 

[delericho]

Actually, the suggestion wasn't to declare the direction of the 5ft. step when you ready the action. It was to declare where you're moving after the readied action is triggered, but before the invisible creature becomes visible. You still get to decide in the moment, you just don't know what move is the best option.

Yep.

 

[Ebony Dragon]

No, it's used a standard action to make an attack. If it hadn't, then it wouldn't have triggered the readied action yet.

The order goes like this:

1. Orc uses a move action to move adjacent to Rogue. This movement doesn't trigger anything, so is resolved immediately.
2. Orc uses a standard action to attack Rogue. This triggers the Rogue's readied action.
3. Rogue's readied action is triggered, to he takes a 5ft. step away. This doesn't trigger anything, so is resolved immediately.
4. The Orc's attack from #2 gets to resolve now, but he doesn't have reach so he can't hit the Rogue.

Note that after #2, the orc has declared an attack, but hasn't yet resolved it. He's still used his standard action, and doesn't get to change that later on just because he no longer has a target to attack.

By that same logic, if the orc hasn't rolled his d20 yet and determined if it hit/miss and how much damage it has done, then he hasn't yet attacked and there is nothing for the readied action to respond to yet.

In elaboration, actions in D&D are flowing and can change from moment to moment as a turn goes by. If I am a 20th level Fighter and decide I want to start beating up a goblin standing next to me, I can start making a full attack on it. Lets say I kill it in the first hit. Even though, maybe I was fully intending to keep swinging at it 4 times, since I killed it in the first hit I can then decide, rather than continuing the "full attack action" to take a 30' move instead. I didn't have to declare I was doing a full attack before starting.

Just like the orc doesn't have to go into the "attack phase" or something to make his attack, thereby letting the opponent 5-foot step away and leave the orc stuck in his "attack phase" with nothing to hit. By 5' stepping away from the orc mid-turn you have made it so no attack happened yet, and therefore the orc can continue moving.

 

[DogBackward]

By that same logic, if the orc hasn't rolled his d20 yet and determined if it hit/miss and how much damage it has done, then he hasn't yet attacked and there is nothing for the readied action to respond to yet.

That's not how resolution works. The orc declares that he is attacking, which triggers the readied action. You're attacking when you use a standard action to attack, then the readied action resolves, then the attack resolves. You don't have to make an attack roll to declare an attack.

 

[Xmarksthespot]

It's been many years since my last 3.5, but as far as I remember you didn't even need to ready the 5ft step; any readied action could include a 5ft step as long as the character hasn't moved in her turn.

 

[Ebony Dragon]

That's not how resolution works. The orc declares that he is attacking, which triggers the readied action. You're attacking when you use a standard action to attack, then the readied action resolves, then the attack resolves. You don't have to make an attack roll to declare an attack.

I feel like this is bypassing the armor class and attack bonus rules somehow, and it must be wrong... Oh well, I concede it works.

Guess I won't bother ever trying to play a 1v1 combat in pathfinder involving melee characters as it sounds like the only way to win that is to pull out a bow and start shooting. Else both people will just stare at each other with readied actions, never being the one to move first.

 

[DogBackward]

I feel like this is bypassing the armor class and attack bonus rules somehow, and it must be wrong... Oh well, I concede it works.

Guess I won't bother ever trying to play a 1v1 combat in pathfinder involving melee characters as it sounds like the only way to win that is to pull out a bow and start shooting. Else both people will just stare at each other with readied actions, never being the one to move first.

Or you could, y'know... use actual tactics instead of acting like the cliche'd "dumb fighter". Here's one: use a Charge. Can't 5ft. step away from a charge, because you haven't ended a move action and so you'll have movement left to finish the charge. Here's another: use terrain to your advantage. Back them into a corner where they can't get away. Or, yes, pull out a thrown/ranged weapon. If you rely only on melee attacks, you deserve to be rendered useless when you can't reliably get in melee range.

As for your "1v1 combat", yeah, if you have two complete novices who have no idea what they're doing, they might just stare at each other. Of course, that's not likely to happen, since presumably both sides want to win, and they'd both know that they can't win if they don't go on the offensive.

All that said, I don't necessarily agree that this is the best outcome, only that it's the outcome that stems from how the rules work as written. Like another poster mentioned, I much prefer D&D Next's approach: no such thing as a 5ft. step. You can circle each other all you want, but as soon as you step away from the fight, you suck an opportunity attack. Much better way of doing things, in my opinion.

 

[Warbringer]

Well technically you can't ready a 5ft step, only take a 5ft step as part of a readied action.

 

[Schmoe]

Per the strict letter of the RAW, I believe DogBackward is right about this - the orc has completed his move action and moved on to his standard action which triggers the Readied action. Because of this, and because actions are considered atomic, he can't "go back" and tack a bit more on to his move - he's finished that action.

The RAW actually don't make much sense. They say:

"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."

But that implies that you can't ready an action to attack someone who moves adjacent to you, because you would make your attack just prior to him moving adjacent to you, and thus he wouldn't be adjacent to you and you wouldn't be able to attack. Likewise, "I ready an action to attack the first creature to appear around the corner" is against the RAW, because you would need to make your attack prior to the creature's movement, in which case it wouldn't even be visible. It seems reasonable to assume that you should be able to do both of the above.

If you want to stick with RAW, then you need to accept a whole host of nonsensical things. I'm not sure RAW is the best guide here.

 

[delericho]

The RAW actually don't make much sense. They say:

"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."

But that implies that you can't ready an action to attack someone who moves adjacent to you, because you would make your attack just prior to him moving adjacent to you, and thus he wouldn't be adjacent to you and you wouldn't be able to attack. Likewise, "I ready an action to attack the first creature to appear around the corner" is against the RAW, because you would need to make your attack prior to the creature's movement, in which case it wouldn't even be visible. It seems reasonable to assume that you should be able to do both of the above.

If you want to stick with RAW, then you need to accept a whole host of nonsensical things. I'm not sure RAW is the best guide here.

Indeed. And, actually, I said as much up-thread.