Can you Sneak Attack with Grapple Checks?

[Hypersmurf]

This is becoming a total threadjack, but does this mean that a giant octopus doesn't actually get to make all eight attacks in a round typically?

Essentially. Instead of resolving eight attacks and then going back and figuring out grapple checks, a successful attack should follow through the steps of attack-damage-grapple before moving onto the next one. If the grapple is initiated, the octopus may not be able to attack any other opponents, since he no longer threatens an area.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Could the octopus choose to attack with a light weapon vs. the critter it's currently grappling, getting the rest of its attacks thereby?

Daniel

 

[Amitiel]

IIRC they covered this in a dragon Sage, but it may have been in the WOTC forums. This is how I remember it.

You may only use Sneak Attack with Grapple if unarmed or with a weapon that specifically allows it (ie the aforementioned garrote), or with a natural grapple attack that deals damage.

Unarmed was explained as being holds that dislocate joints or (if you can manage it) breaking your opponants neck or other bones.

 

[Deset Gled]

IIRC they covered this in a dragon Sage, but it may have been in the WOTC forums. This is how I remember it.

You may only use Sneak Attack with Grapple if unarmed or with a weapon that specifically allows it (ie the aforementioned garrote), or with a natural grapple attack that deals damage.

Unarmed was explained as being holds that dislocate joints or (if you can manage it) breaking your opponants neck or other bones.

This ruling seems to be in agreement with the Sage's previous rulings on grapples. Unfortunately, it's based off a general misunderstanding of the grapple rules, so I don't think it can be taken seriously. You cannot attack with a natural weapon in a grapple by using the "damage your opponent" option, only through the "attack your opponent" option, in which any weapon could be used (to sneak attack, or otherwise).

This is one of the topics that the Sage has backpedalled on recently in his Rules of the Game articles:
Grappling Part 2: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a
Grappling Part 4: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a

It is interesting to note that the Sage seems to (or used to) think that you could SA with the "damage your opponenet" option, though.

 

[Adolfo_Mondschein]

Grappling Sneak Attack

Under the rogue's entry, it says her attacks deal extra damage when....etc etc. Would grapple checks to deal damage count as attacks for this purpose?

Yes, as long as your opponent is flatfooted you could use your sneak attack. Grapple uses a touch attack roll and deals damage to an opponent, on the roll of a natural 20 you threaten criticals, thus you can sneak attack with it. So if you are flanking an orc with a buddy, or you blinded the orc somehow, when you make your touch attack to grapple him, you can add your sneak attack to the damage. While grappling with the orc of course he keeps his dex to ac, unfortunetly.

If you had a good buddy to hold the orc down for you, well that would just make it a lot easier now wouldn't it? I'd also like to point out that monks can use flurry of blows while grappling, which I take full advantage of when playing them, and the rogues are usually pleased as well.

Hope this helps!

 

[Deset Gled]

Grapple uses a touch attack roll and deals damage to an opponent, on the roll of a natural 20 you threaten criticals, thus you can sneak attack with it.

Grappling does not deal damage. You can choose to deal damage after the grapple is started. But the "Damage Your Opponent" option isn't an attack roll. It's an opposed grapple check. No auto-success on a 20, no criticals. A significant portion of the discussion above is debating whether or not the "Damage Your Opponent" option counts as an attack or not.

There is a touch attack at the beginning of a grapple, but it doesn't cause any damage (so no sneak attack), and it's only done when the grapple is initiated.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Could the octopus choose to attack with a light weapon vs. the critter it's currently grappling, getting the rest of its attacks thereby?

While grappling, you're limited to a single natural weapon, so he could get one more attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Ah. One more reason to hate the grapple rules: they are, IMO, among the least intuitive sections of the rules (in addition to being a magic-bullet-style approach to combat for large creatures).

Daniel

 

[Adolfo_Mondschein]

grappling is confusing...

Grappling does not deal damage. You can choose to deal damage after the grapple is started. But the "Damage Your Opponent" option isn't an attack roll. It's an opposed grapple check. No auto-success on a 20, no criticals. A significant portion of the discussion above is debating whether or not the "Damage Your Opponent" option counts as an attack or not.

There is a touch attack at the beginning of a grapple, but it doesn't cause any damage (so no sneak attack), and it's only done when the grapple is initiated.

I see what you mean. I pulled out the books and checked out wotc. Ok, the description of rogues sneak attack doesn't appear to say you have to make an attack roll at all. So generally, whenever you deal melee damage or ranged damage within 30ft of an opponent denied their Dex, you add sneak attack. If in the middle of a grapple with an opponent that is denied their Dex to you, you may either use the Damage the Opponent feature (such as attacking with a dagger) , or the Damage your Opponent feature (making the opposed grapple checks). Then again, the rules on grappling seem kind of fuzzy to me... like they didn't put nearly enough time into it...