can you take 10 on a hide check?

[irdeggman]

Usually /= always, nor does "normally" = "always". Given the hide skill does discussing hiding while immobile (and even a bonus for such, if one is invisible, that is above and beyond the bonus for moving and hiding while invisible). And I think it's obvious that you can hide while not moving. That's what ambush is all about. Do people really think ambushes cannot be done in D&D, or that they do not involve the hide skill?

Man you seem to just want to start an argument for old time's sake.

I really believe we are saying the same thing.

I said (and provided the quote) as to "why" it is listed as usually none, not as to what else that entails only the reason it states "usually none". Precisely because hiding "usually" involves movement and so it is not an action of its own because it is part of the movement.

A hide check that is not part of movement is specifically an action of its own as pointed out in the sniping application.

As I also stated out previously:

IMO you can take 10 with a hide check, as per the normal rules for taking 10.

You can not, however, take 20 since that involves "failure" and if you fail a hide check you are spotted and can then no longer attempt to hide without the circumstances changing first. So no matter how it is attempted (well ahead of time as per seting up an ambush) you can not take 20 because of the way the mechanics of taking 20 work. It has nothing to do with a the skill carrying a penalty for failure or not {IMO one of the common misconceptions of why you can't take 20 on a hide check}. It only has to do with the fact that there is 'automatically' considered a "failure" during the take 20 process and that once a hide check is failed you can not attempt it again under the same circumstances.

 

[TYPO5478]

And I have responded. It doesn't say what you are claiming it says. It does not state that the use of the skill and the roll for that skill check are done simultaneously. That is the claim the both of you are trying to draw from that rule, and when you look at the rule it really doesn't say anything of the sort.

I'm not claiming that the rule uses the word "simultaneous" (or any variation thereof). I'm claiming that the rule describes the usage of a skill and the roll of the skill check as being simultaneous without using that word. The first sentence in the rule says, "When your character uses a skill, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does." It doesn't say, "When your character uses a skill or any time thereafter, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does." You make the skill check when you use the skill (unless the description of the skill says differently, like Forgery or Use Rope).

You can hide without rolling a check, using the skill. Much like you can forge a document without rolling a check, and you can disguise yourself without rolling a check.
...
Much like forgery and disguise, you roll when someone comes within range to be capable of seeing you with an appropriate spot check for the first time.

You're comparing Hide to two other rules that have specific exceptions. Hide doesn't have a similar exception. Therefore you have to make a Hide check when you use the skill, not later.

Hide is not tied to movement. You can hide and move, and you can hide and not move. The skill description speaks to this issue. In particular, there are even bonuses for remaining immobile while hiding, such as when one is invisible and immobile.

I think you're misinterpreting the phrase "Usually none" in the Action entry of the Hide skill. "Usually none" doesn't mean "Hide is usually part of movement, but sometimes it isn't." It means "Hide usually doesn't take a separate action, but sometimes it does." The rest of the entry goes on to describe exactly what sort of situation would require a use of the Hide skill to take a move action. Typical uses of Hide are absolutely connected to movement.

Given the hide skill does discussing hiding while immobile (and even a bonus for such, if one is invisible, that is above and beyond the bonus for moving and hiding while invisible).

Note that the bonuses you get for being immobile are only available if you're invisible. There are no bonuses for being visible and immobile, nor does the description of the skill ever refer to such a condition.

Is this reading of the one position somewhat accurate? Not counting the bonus blah blah, just the interaction.

No, I don't think so. Use Rope, like Forgery and Disguise, specifically says that you make the check at a different time than you use the skill; Hide does not.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

No, I don't think so. Use Rope, like Forgery and Disguise, specifically says that you make the check at a different time than you use the skill; Hide does not.

So the position is "you're not hiding until someone is there to try and see you" ?

 

[Mistwell]

Man you seem to just want to start an argument for old time's sake.

I really believe we are saying the same thing.

I said (and provided the quote) as to "why" it is listed as usually none, not as to what else that entails only the reason it states "usually none". Precisely because hiding "usually" involves movement and so it is not an action of its own because it is part of the movement.

A hide check that is not part of movement is specifically an action of its own as pointed out in the sniping application.

As I also stated out previously:

IMO you can take 10 with a hide check, as per the normal rules for taking 10.

You can not, however, take 20 since that involves "failure" and if you fail a hide check you are spotted and can then no longer attempt to hide without the circumstances changing first. So no matter how it is attempted (well ahead of time as per seting up an ambush) you can not take 20 because of the way the mechanics of taking 20 work. It has nothing to do with a the skill carrying a penalty for failure or not {IMO one of the common misconceptions of why you can't take 20 on a hide check}. It only has to do with the fact that there is 'automatically' considered a "failure" during the take 20 process and that once a hide check is failed you can not attempt it again under the same circumstances.

I was not actually specifically disagreeing with you, just responding to that small point that was in your post. I have not commented on the whole take 20 issue.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not claiming that the rule uses the word "simultaneous" (or any variation thereof). I'm claiming that the rule describes the usage of a skill and the roll of the skill check as being simultaneous without using that word. The first sentence in the rule says, "When your character uses a skill, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does." It doesn't say, "When your character uses a skill or any time thereafter, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does." You make the skill check when you use the skill (unless the description of the skill says differently, like Forgery or Use Rope).

And I disagree with your intepretation. Read as written the first sentence doesn't imply simultnaneous action to me. The "when your character uses a skill," is not implying a time frame to me. I understand that the word "when" often implies a time frame, but in this case it's more of an indication similar to "So your character has decided to use a skill? Here are the ramifications of that...". Sort of like the sentence "When you get a good education, you get a good job" doesn't imply that your good job comes simultaneous with the good education, despite the use of the word "when", just that a good education leads to a good job.

You're comparing Hide to two other rules that have specific exceptions.

I do not view them as specific exceptions. There is no rule the are "exceptions" from. They are just describing that these skills are ALWAYS done well in advance of a required roll. I suppose that is the exception - most skills depend on the specific circumstances to tell if you make the check simultaneous with the use, or at a much later time. Forgery and Disguise and Use Rope are always not simultaneous. Hide, however, is circumstance-dependant.

Hide doesn't have a similar exception.

Nor could it, since hide is dependant on circumstances. Forgery always has to be done well in advance of the skill check. Hide can be done well in advance, when laying in ambush, or it could be done very close to the time of the check, like when moving. The same language wouldn't work for hide. However, that doesn't mean it cannot function similar to forgery if the circumstances are right for it - like an ambush.

Therefore you have to make a Hide check when you use the skill, not later.

And I disagree with your logic. Just because forgery and disguise and use rope have language about how they always work, doesn't mean hide never works that way if the circumstances allow for it.

I

think you're misinterpreting the phrase "Usually none" in the Action entry of the Hide skill. "Usually none" doesn't mean "Hide is usually part of movement, but sometimes it isn't." It means "Hide usually doesn't take a separate action, but sometimes it does."

I was just responding to others who were citing that language for your side of the debate. I think it's bloody well clear you don't need to move to hide, but a few others were arguing otherwise.

The rest of the entry goes on to describe exactly what sort of situation would require a use of the Hide skill to take a move action. Typical uses of Hide are absolutely connected to movement.

And some atypical but fully allowable uses do not. Like an ambush. Like standing still while invisible. Like sniping. Like any sort of hiding while not moving (as in "I hide behind the chair, hoping the terrfying Ogre does not see me and eat me when it comes around the corner").

Note that the bonuses you get for being immobile are only available if you're invisible. There are no bonuses for being visible and immobile, nor does the description of the skill ever refer to such a condition.

Yes, I know. Not sure what your point is. I was citing that portion to demonstrate that the hide rule itself assumes you CAN hide while immobile. That you don't get bonuses for doing so unless you are invisible is not relevant to my point. You can hide while not moving. Hiding is not tied to moving.

No, I don't think so. Use Rope, like Forgery and Disguise, specifically says that you make the check at a different time than you use the skill; Hide does not.

See above

 

[Mistwell]

So the position is "you're not hiding until someone is there to try and see you" ?

Yeah that seems to be the claim being made. Sort of a Quantum Mechanics viewer changes the experiment argument. It's silly in my opinion, but that is indeed the claim being made. I guess they would say that you have not forged a document until it is observed, and you have not put on a disguise until someone sees your disguise, and you have not tied a knot in a rope until someone tries to undo the knot or use the rope.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

Yeah that seems to be the claim being made. Sort of a Quantum Mechanics viewer changes the experiment argument. It's silly in my opinion, but that is indeed the claim being made. I guess they would say that you have not forged a document until it is observed, and you have not put on a disguise until someone sees your disguise, and you have not tied a knot in a rope until someone tries to undo the knot or use the rope.

Sounds very zen.

I'm just trying to figure out what the arguments really are - this thread has gotten impossible to read with the point-counterpoint-quote structure, and it seems half the posts are filled with "no, I didn't say that, you said that" etc. Obfuscation is only a good debate tactic when somebody wants to win... otherwise clarity is more useful!

 

[Mistwell]

Sounds very zen.

I'm just trying to figure out what the arguments really are - this thread has gotten impossible to read with the point-counterpoint-quote structure, and it seems half the posts are filled with "no, I didn't say that, you said that" etc. Obfuscation is only a good debate tactic when somebody wants to win... otherwise clarity is more useful!

The thread seems to come down to two points: 1) Do you always have to move in order to hide, or can you hide while standing still, and 2) can you set up a hide before you are being observed, like with disguise and forgery, or do you hide only when under the imminent threat of an observer.

 

[Sunfist]

1) Of course you can hide when you are standing still. And movement applies a penalty to hiding.

2) I've finally come to a decision on this. You can obfuscate yourself and make yourself less likely to be seen before hand. (This might be how you provide yourself with a cover bonus later on.) However, you do not initiate the Hide Skill until someone is trying to spot you.

This makes sense when you consider certain scenarios. Suppose you are hiding behind a bush. If someone is on the other side of the bush from you, you have cover. So, if we went with the rule where you roll Hide as soon as you obfuscate yourself, do you add the bonus or not?

It makes more sense to wait until the spotter is on the scene. If he's on the other side of the bush, your Hide Skill roll will receive the appropriate bonus. If he has come at your from a perpendicular angle, then you probably will not.

That's why I think it makes sense to roll Hide (and use the Hide Skill) when being spotted, even though you previously took measures to make yourself harder to be seen.

(Sorry for some of those phrases. I was avoiding using the word "hide" when I wasn't talking about the skill.)