can you take 10 on a hide check?

[Primitive Screwhead]

Actually its listed as "usually none" because it is usually part of movement and not its own action. Which is stated under the hide skill.

"Action; Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action."

As opposed to the Jump skill which has "Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action".. a very clear example of how a skill is tied to movement.

Meaning Hide is usually part of a move action, but sometimes it is not part of a move action and generally does not take a separate action... except when sniping as the text clearly states. Nothing outside of DM interpretation keeps you from using the skill without spending any action or moving.

 

[Warbringer]

Two guards stand solemnly on duty outside the Prison of the Ill-fated, the dark rain falling like sleet. A figure hides drowned in shadow, watching for the right time to strike...

On guard, Ank, takes 20, the other, Morp actively looks each round.....

'What you staring,' Morp anxiously asked.
'That tree by the break in the old ruin,'answered Ank.
'Why?' asked Morp, straining his eyes in the dark. 'I don't see anything'
'There's someone there,' he answered.' I'm sure of it. I have that tingling on the back of my neck that I get when I know someone's there.'
'Could be the rain,' Morp offered.
'It's not the rain you dope,' Ank snapped, jabbing Morp in the ribs.
'Well I don't see anyone,' Morp anwered defensively.'And there's nothing wrong with my eyes.'
'Except you can't see in the dark,' Ank continued.'The physician told you so. Where are those glasess he gave you?'
'Those things!' Morp protested.'They make me look nerdy'
'Yeah, cause squinting all the time makes you look like Aerler the Great himself!,' Ank said. 'So....where are they?'
'In my back pack,' he answered. 'But I swear there's no one there!'
'He's there,' Ank Confidently answered.'Or she is. Or it is....but dammit something's there. Just give it a minute and you'll see.'
Rummaging in his pack, Morp pulled out the tiny wine frames that tightly held what he assumed were the bottom of a pair of bottles. Struggling, he pulled the tight frames against his large head, looping the wire over each ear.
Ank suppressed the urge to erupt in laughter.
'Ok, so where is this she-he-it..eh?' he demanded, getting angry at the laughter in Ank's eyes. 'I swear, I can read the arrest warrant pinned to the tree, but there's nothing there.'
'And I'm telling you there is,' Ank retorted.
'You need to lay of the booze,' Morp hepfully suggested.
'Me?' Ank snapped.'I'm not the one wearing last nights empties on my head!'
'That does it,' he answered, ripping the googles from his head.
Across the street he saw a shadow move.
'What was that,' asked Morp.
'I told ya...all ya had to do was wait two minutes'
Lowering their weapons, the two charged across the rain soaked cobbled street.

 

[Mistwell]

Mistwell: I got about 1/3rd of the way through your response before I stopped reading. I do not believe you are trying to argue a point here anymore, but are just being insulting. I assume you continue to disagree with whatever I've said and am very content with that.

I was not trying to be insulting, though I can see how it would come across that way and for that I am sorry.

Let's cut to the heart of the matter - I do not think hiding must be part of movement, just that it often is part of movement. Do you agree that you can hide while not moving? Much like the sub-note to the hide skill that talks about being immobile while invisible and hiding, I think the rules assume you can hide while not moving, and that seems relevant to most of what you wrote.

 

[Mistwell]

Hmm, so let me get this straight.

You are actually stating that you can take 10 on a hide check. But that the normal rules for when a character can take 10 apply.

And Mistwell is arguing that you can take 10 on a hide check too.

Really what are the two of arguing over, except semantics.

It seems to me that you are actually both stating the same thing then.

The fundamental difference between our positions is that I say you can lay in ambush while nothing is nearby, therefore taking 10 on your hide check in advance of someone coming, and using those "nobody nearby" conditions for the initial actual roll when something comes near. The ramifications of this argument include being able to take 10 much more often.

 

[Mistwell]

He's already pointed it out (and so have I, in fact). It's the section on "Using Skills."

And I have responded. It doesn't say what you are claiming it says. It does not state that the use of the skill and the roll for that skill check are done simultaneously. That is the claim the both of you are trying to draw from that rule, and when you look at the rule it really doesn't say anything of the sort.

Let's say I'm standing in a position that the light from the guards' torches will not illuminate me (even shadowily) when they pass; that is, I'm not going to move when they approach but I can still maintain my concealment. I wasn't Hiding before they approached because there was no one to oppose my check (so I didn't get to make one);

Stop there. That is where I disagree. You can hide without rolling a check, using the skill. Much like you can forge a document without rolling a check, and you can disguise yourself without rolling a check. You can use skills without rolling for those skills, depending on the skill and the circumstance. Given that you cannot hide while being observed, in general hide is used (but not rolled) in advance of the actual skill check roll.

I can't Hide when they approach because I'm not going to move.

Hide is not tied to movement. You can hide and move, and you can hide and not move. The skill description speaks to this issue. In particular, there are even bonuses for remaining immobile while hiding, such as when one is invisible and immobile.

Yet I'm concealed and unobserved. Should I roll a check? If so, when? If not, am I actually Hidden (per the skill) even though I didn't make a check? Do the guards automatically succeed or fail on their Spot check to notice me? Do they even get to make one?

Much like forgery and disguise, you roll when someone comes within range to be capable of seeing you with an appropriate spot check for the first time.

 

[Mistwell]

Actually its listed as "usually none" because it is usually part of movement and not its own action. Which is stated under the hide skill.

"Action; Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action."

Usually /= always, nor does "normally" = "always". Given the hide skill does discussing hiding while immobile (and even a bonus for such, if one is invisible, that is above and beyond the bonus for moving and hiding while invisible). And I think it's obvious that you can hide while not moving. That's what ambush is all about. Do people really think ambushes cannot be done in D&D, or that they do not involve the hide skill?

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

Not to agree with one side or the other, but to just interject for a moment to try and clarify something, it seems that one side (I can't follow who's on what side anymore) seems to be suggesting that Hide/Spot interact in the same manner that Escape Artist/Use Rope interact when you tie someone up.

Bind a Character: When you bind another character with a rope, any Escape Artist check that the bound character makes is opposed by your Use Rope check. You get a +10 bonus on this check because it is easier to bind someone than to escape from bonds. You don’t even make your Use Rope check until someone tries to escape.

Is this reading of the one position somewhat accurate? Not counting the bonus blah blah, just the interaction.

 

[Mistwell]

Not to agree with one side or the other, but to just interject for a moment to try and clarify something, it seems that one side (I can't follow who's on what side anymore) seems to be suggesting that Hide/Spot interact in the same manner that Escape Artist/Use Rope interact when you tie someone up.Is this reading of the one position somewhat accurate? Not counting the bonus blah blah, just the interaction.

Yes. Same kind of thing for forgery and disguise.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

And the other side is saying it does not work this way, or that it works this way and in other ways (a la using Use Rope to just tie a knot)?

 

[Sunfist]

Sunfist: Your point is valid and you are right that there must exist a line - as you've suggested, probably distinguished by any given DM - between what is "threatening or distracting" and what is not. However, I'm proposing that any situation in which combat or serious damage is possible from a failed roll should count as threatening or distracting. Granted, in your "orc is 150 yards away" example, it would be hard to say with certainty if it would even be possible to fail a hide check - perhaps the distance is just too great - and that leads to some ambiguousness. I am advocating erring on the side of not taking 10 in this kind of situation. Additionally, this has the advantage of (to me, anyway) defining a more clear-cut rule.

Very interesting. I most certainly can see the logic behind that (especially the part that I put in bold). On one hand, I'd argue that by the time someone was, say, level 12, just the "threat of combat" wouldn't distract them anymore, but understand that I'm not really arguing that from a rules standpoint. I'm just thinking out loud.

Well, this post makes a strong case. At the very least it makes a strong enough case that I certainly don't have a rule to point to which would demonstrate this reasoning to be flawed.

So, ultimately I agree with you. I'm not sure I would always agree with your rule of "if combat might start, then distracted" but I agree enough, and seriously, what rule out there always makes sense?

Thanks for clearing that up. I totally get where you're coming from.