can you take 10 on a hide check?

[evilbob]

Ok, rather than do a point-by-point response to your point-by-point of my point-by-point of your point-by-point of my point-by-point, I think I'll try a different tack.

Let's try an example again. You are an orc who has hidden behind a tree 2 minutes ago to surprise some guards who are looking for you.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you go behind the tree? No. Why? Because no Hide check is necessary. You simply go behind the tree. No one is observing you and it is not opposed. You are basically taking full cover from the tree.
- Do you roll a Hide check once you are behind the tree? No. Why? Again because it is not needed. No one is there; you are simply "hidden." You have full cover.
- Do you roll a Hide check when the guard looks at the tree? No. Why? Because you have full cover. You are hidden behind a solid object; no normal means of sight can allow the guard to see you so you still have full cover.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you run out from behind the tree and attack? Barring special abilities, no. Why? Because you've broken cover and the guards can see you. You're no longer hiding. (But you most likely do get a surprise round against them.)

Here's another example. You are the same orc in the forest at night. You are not near any trees big enough to grant cover, but you are getting concealment from the dark night.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you are waiting for the guards? No. Why? Again, not necessary. No one can see you; you are just hiding (English word, not game term).
- Do you roll a Hide check when the guards are coming down the path and you move to a better position to avoid their lamp light? YES. Why? Because a Hide check is part of your movement. You are continuing to hide while moving, and the guards get a reactive/opposed check to try to spot you.
- Do you roll a Hide check to approach the edge of their lamp light so that you can charge them? YES. Why? Just like above, you are making a hide check as part of your movement which is opposed by their spot check.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you charge forward into their light? Again, barring special abilities, no. Why? Because, again, you are no longer hiding.

THAT is what I mean by:
The text of the Hide skill indicates that it is usually "part of movement." This seems to indicate that you cannot use it "in preparation" but must use it "when there is the possibility you might be observed."

Why does "might be observed" imply threatened or distracted?

This is a separate argument, clearly, as we've said. I am taking the position that the possibility of being observed is distracting enough to not allow taking 10. For example, if an invisible rogue is trying to move silently past a hungry red dragon, the posibilitiy that he may be overheard and thusly, fried, seems to warrant it being "distracting" enough to NOT be a routine or everyday sort of task.

 

[Mistwell]

Ok, rather than do a point-by-point response to your point-by-point of my point-by-point of your point-by-point of my point-by-point, I think I'll try a different tack.

Let's try an example again. You are an orc who has hidden behind a tree 2 minutes ago to surprise some guards who are looking for you.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you go behind the tree? No. Why? Because no Hide check is necessary. You simply go behind the tree. No one is observing you and it is not opposed. You are basically taking full cover from the tree.
- Do you roll a Hide check once you are behind the tree? No. Why? Again because it is not needed. No one is there; you are simply "hidden." You have full cover.
- Do you roll a Hide check when the guard looks at the tree? No. Why? Because you have full cover. You are hidden behind a solid object; no normal means of sight can allow the guard to see you so you still have full cover.
- Do you roll a Hide check when you run out from behind the tree and attack? Barring special abilities, no. Why? Because you've broken cover and the guards can see you. You're no longer hiding. (But you most likely do get a surprise round against them.)

All of your examples equate "when do I roll my hide check" with "when do I use the skill". I said not that long ago that the two are not necessarily the same, and you have yet to address that issue.

For example, I use the forgery skill when I forge a document by putting pen to paper and write it (and the conditions available at that time determine whether or not I get a circumstance bonus or penalty, whether I can take 10 on the check, and related matters), but I don't actually roll the skill until someone observes the document. In fact, I may well not even be present when the document is observed later, though I will still make the roll when the DM asks me to later (actually technically the DM rolls for me, since your check is secret). Still, your check is made when the document is observed, even if you are not present, and even though the modifiers of your check were set when you forged the document and not when it is being observed.

So asking "When do I roll?" is not the most important question. We already know that skill use and rolling on skills do not have to happen simultaneously. The question is "When do I use the skill?".

By the way, interesting side note I just saw in the Disguise skill text: "If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks." So, we know you can take 10 on a spot check.

 

[evilbob]

You use the skill when you're rolling the dice. Forgery is an exception and listed as one, although technically you could roll the dice (read: have the DM secretly roll for you) when you were using the skill then as well; it doesn't really matter since the result is the same. I think the Forgery exception is listed so that you don't have to bother rolling (and then keeping track of it) for something that never gets looked at.

If my answer seems curt I may not have understood your question. It seems that rolling a Hide check and using the skill are the same thing.

 

[Mistwell]

You use the skill when you're rolling the dice.

Show me a rule that says that.

Forgery is an exception and listed as one,

Show me where it is listed as an "exception".

If my answer seems curt I may not have understood your question. It seems that rolling a Hide check and using the skill are the same thing.

It's not though. Much like disguise and forgery, there is no reason you could not set the conditions when you use the skill, and roll when it is opposed.

I forge a document and then put on a disguise in my house in calm conditions, and go out in public where it is hectic. My disguise roll will be as if I were in calm conditions, because the conditions for the skill are set when I put the disguise on.

I then hand a forged document to the guard, who has a sword out and is demanding to know why I am there. My forgery check however is based on calm conditions present in my house, because the conditions for the skill were set when I did the forgery.

I get past the guard, and hide unmoving in the shadows of an alcove when nobody is present and conditions are calm. A guard wth his sword out then comes around the corner later and gets a spot check to oppose my hide. My hide check however is based on the conditions present when I hid in that spot earlier.

Three situations, all similar, and yet you claim there is some exception in the rules for forgery and disguise that is not allowed for hide? Why?

 

[evilbob]

I forge a document and then put on a disguise in my house in calm conditions, and go out in public where it is hectic. My disguise roll will be as if I were in calm conditions, because the conditions for the skill are set when I put the disguise on.

Exactly - you used the skill when you rolled the dice: earlier, when it was calm. You don't have to physically roll the dice then, but that's when it "counts." So they effectively happen at the same time, even though the text for Forgery says you don't need to physically roll it until you feel it is necessary (again, I'm thinking for ease of bookkeeping). This is the same as Hide: you roll when the skill is used, except that you can't just make the roll later because you need to know right now.

I cannot show you where Forgery is listed as an exception because it isn't listed that way at all. It simply is an exception (English word, not game term): the other rules involve one thing and it says something else.

The rule is:

Using Skills

When your character uses a skill, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does.

And just to be sure we understand this:

Skill Checks

To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill.

So when you use Forgery, "you don’t even need to make a check until someone examines the work" - which is an exception to the "when you use a skill, you roll the dice" rule. But you can. Because you are using the skill at the same time you roll the dice.

 

[Mistwell]

Exactly - you used the skill when you rolled the dice: earlier, when it was calm.

No more or less than the hide check. "Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results." Pretty much the same rule as hide. You don't even roll a disguise check until you are observed, and you only roll it once no matter how many observers there are.

You don't have to physically roll the dice then, but that's when it "counts."

Just like hide.

So they effectively happen at the same time, even though the text for Forgery says you don't need to physically roll it until you feel it is necessary (again, I'm thinking for ease of bookkeeping).

So for Disguise and Forgery, you make the check when you make the disguise or forgery, even though you do not actually roll until it is opposed. So we are in agreement - the time you roll a check is not always the time you use the skill. Right?

This is the same as Hide: you roll when the skill is used, except that you can't just make the roll later because you need to know right now.

What?

Why? Why would you need to know right now for hide, when you wouldn't need to know right now with forgery and disguise?

I cannot show you where Forgery is listed as an exception because it isn't listed that way at all.

So when you said "Forgery is an exception and listed as one,", were you lying, or mistaken?

It simply is an exception (English word, not game term): the other rules involve one thing and it says something else.

You said "Forgery is an exception and listed as one". I'm not a grammar expert, but when you say "Forgery is an exception" that's the English word, not game term. But when you say "and listed as one", that seems pretty clear to me to be a game rule list. It's certainly not "listed" in a dictionary as an exception.

So when you use Forgery, "you don’t even need to make a check until someone examines the work" - which is an exception to the "when you use a skill, you roll the dice" rule.

Where is that rule? It sure seems to depend on the circumstances. Some skills get used and have their roll simultaneously, some not, and some depends on the circumstances. Where is the rule that all are simultaneous unless otherwise specified? Sure seems to me like the rule is defaulted to "depends on the circumstances" like every other rule in this game.

But you can. Because you are using the skill at the same time you roll the dice.

You are not initiatiing the use of the hide skill when you roll the dice, by defintion. If you are initiating the use of the skill then, you are too late because you were already observed, and you cannot begin to hide while observed. You need to initiate before you are observed, just like you need to forge before you are observed, and just like you need to disguise before you are observed. All three involve using the skill earlier than the actual opposed roll, and all three should use the conditions present when you used the skill as opposed to the conditions present when the opposed roll takes place.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

My two cents..

The skill does not state that you cannot take 10... so you must be able to.

The skill is written similar to Disguise in that it is opposed by a spot check.

My reading is that a skill check is required for each action spent hiding. The only time an opposed check is done is when there is a chance for you to be spotted.
For ease of play, the time you roll the dice is when someone has a chance of spotting you.

This makes more sense than asking a player to roll each round while completely hidden from view and no-one is watching.

Basically, just like Disguise, you roll once when someone(s) have an opportunity to spot you. You can take 10 if you wish to reduce the variance inherent in a D20. You remain hidden until movement, yours our thiers, prompts another opportunity for them to spot you.

 

[evilbob]

What?

Why? Why would you need to know right now for hide, when you wouldn't need to know right now with forgery and disguise?

Because using Hide is part of your movement, and "needing to know right now" is how skills normally work; forgery and disguise are exceptions.

So when you said "Forgery is an exception and listed as one,", were you lying, or mistaken? ...

I'm sorry, but this just seems mean-spirited to me. It is "listed" having an "exception." Those two words aren't used in the description of the skill, but it is an exception, and it "lists" the "exception" of how you use it differently than you use other skills. If you honestly don't understand what I was trying to say I will be happy to explain it again, but if you are just nit-picking my wording I will not.

Where is that ["when you use a skill, you roll the dice"] rule?

Quoted above from the SRD.

You are not initiatiing the use of the hide skill when you roll the dice, by defintion...

Yes, you are. It's not a situation where you are using the skill and then moving, or moving and then using the skill. It's a part of your movement to avoid being detected.


Honestly, we're just going around in circles. I believe we can narrow this down to two salient points: do you agree that using a Hide check is part of your movement, and that unless described otherwise opposed checks happen at the same time? If you disagree with either of these two points, then you are not going to agree with anything else presented, and we don't have to continue to list why over and over. (And if you don't that's fine - we can agree to disagree.)

 

[Mistwell]

Because using Hide is part of your movement,

No, it's not. Let's put that argument to rest already. Movement is not required. It states that right in the skill. It's often used with movement, but it doesn't require movement. So any argument about how the skill MUST function has to account for non-movement situations.

and "needing to know right now" is how skills normally work; forgery and disguise are exceptions.

It's not how skills "normally" work when many skills depend on the situation and there is no rule about how it is supposed to work barring something else. All this "exception" stuff has to come from a rule, and you have yet to cite a rule that serves as a basis for there to be an "exception".

I'm sorry, but this just seems mean-spirited to me. It is "listed" having an "exception." Those two words aren't used in the description of the skill, but it is an exception, and it "lists" the "exception" of how you use it differently than you use other skills. If you honestly don't understand what I was trying to say I will be happy to explain it again, but if you are just nit-picking my wording I will not.

I honestly think you thought there was a listing, and were mistaken, and are now unwilling to admit your mistake. It's not a matter of not understanding what you meant - I understood perfectly. You thought there was a rule listing an exception, and there is not. And it's only relevant to this debate because I want to know if I am debating this with someone treating the debate itself like a game that they want to "win", or if someone is actually interested in seeking out a good interpretation of the rule regardless of their hypothesis turning out to be correct.

"Where is that ["when you use a skill, you roll the dice"] rule?" Quoted above from the SRD.

Sorry, but it doesn't say what you claim it says. It says you make a roll, it doesn't say it is a simultaneous roll. That's the point we are discussing. We all agree that skills involve a roll at some point. The question is, at what point, and can that point in time be dependent on the circumstances?

"You are not initiatiing the use of the hide skill when you roll the dice, by defintion..." Yes, you are.

Then your hide check auto-fails every time. If you are being observed, you cannot hide. If you are INITIATING the use of the hide skill when you are being observed, you cannot hide. You must initiate the use of the skill before being observed.

It's not a situation where you are using the skill and then moving, or moving and then using the skill. It's a part of your movement to avoid being detected.

Again, lets end this "it must be part of movement" claim. You do not have to move to hide. Period. It's in the skill description as being "normally" not "always". I think everyone in this thread agrees you can stand still and hide, without moving. Leave that strawman be already.

Honestly, we're just going around in circles. I believe we can narrow this down to two salient points: do you agree that using a Hide check is part of your movement,

No, I do not. It can be part of movement, and often is, and in your normal dungeon situation it's the most likely thing to be happening. But it does not have to be part of movement, and if one were setting an ambush it likely is not involving movement, and ambush is the point we are discussing rightnow. You can stand still and hide.

and that unless described otherwise opposed checks happen at the same time?

Opposed rolls might happen at the same time, but that is not what we are discussing. I thought we got past that whole thing? We both agreed that sometimes skills can be used prior to the time the roll is made for the skill. And it doesn't have to be "described" that way, it just has to be circumstances which dictate it going that way. Why are you now back to your earlier position, when you already admitted sometimes that's not how it works and we need to decide if hide can work that way.

If you disagree with either of these two points, then you are not going to agree with anything else presented, and we don't have to continue to list why over and over. (And if you don't that's fine - we can agree to disagree.)

So you honestly think the hide skill can only be used if you are moving, and never when you are standing still? Really? I think you are a party of one on that issue. I mean, what would be the purpose of the sentence "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile," if you cannot be immobile while hiding?

 

[Sunfist]

This is a separate argument, clearly, as we've said. I am taking the position that the possibility of being observed is distracting enough to not allow taking 10. For example, if an invisible rogue is trying to move silently past a hungry red dragon, the posibilitiy that he may be overheard and thusly, fried, seems to warrant it being "distracting" enough to NOT be a routine or everyday sort of task.

According to RAW and this skill, though, it's really the only rule that matters. I also agree with your example. That's why I think it's largely up to the GM. The rogue in your example would clearly be distracted.

Conversely, if I were hiding up in a tree, about 150 yards away from an orc who was trying to spot me there, I wouldn't be remotely distracted by that. In fact, knowing he was there would help me to hide because I could position myself with more cover between me and him. (That's speaking in "in game" terms, of course. I'm not refering to the "cover" rules.