can you take 10 on a hide check?

[Hussar]

Y'know what? Thanks guys, I think I've been using the Hide skill wrong.

I've always kind of done it like the old Baldur's Gate game where you go Hide and then you can pretty much move around. The rogue in my games would roll his hide check and then move. But, if you have, say, darkvision, then nothing can hide from you within 60 feet (barring extra stuff) ever.

Man, I wish I had known this when playing Life's a Bazaar. The fight with the Skulk's would have been a hell of a lot easier.

 

[evilbob]

You roll a check when you use a skill, not before, not after. If you're making a Hide check when someone tries to Spot you, it means you're using the Hide skill when someone tries to Spot you. And if they've already Spotted you, you're observed and can't Hide.

I am arguing this is correct.

On the other hand, if you Hide before you're Spotted, you roll the check when you Hide, and anyone looking for you can oppose it with Spot whenever they get a chance.

I am arguing that this is incorrect and not how the Hide skill works.

My arguement is that you cannot use the skill without making an opposed roll. Granted, some skills, like Disguise, can be done beforehand. However, disguise is actually a distinct action, whereas hide is not a distinct action. You cannot Hide. You can move and try not to be seen, which, if there is no observer, will be automatically successful, but, you cannot just Hide like you can make a disguise.

I am arguing that this is correct.

Although I think a better question is this: why do you think you can attempt to Hide with an observer watching you (even though the rules say you can't)?

Statements like this lead me to believe that you must be missing the point here. No one is advocating this. I'm not sure why you insist that people are, and continue to argue against it.

Let me see if I can word it better:

The argument basically comes down to one point: when do you use the Hide skill? Do you use it significantly before you are observed (i.e. "in preparation") or when there is the possibility that you might be observed (i.e. "when you are opposed")? The text of the Hide skill indicates that it is usually "part of movement." This seems to indicate that you cannot use it "in preparation" but must use it "when there is the possibility you might be observed."

The continuation of the original logic, therefore, is that since you "might be observed" you are under conditions that are unsuitable for taking 10.

 

[Mistwell]

The argument basically comes down to one point: when do you use the Hide skill?

I disagree. The argument for me is coming down to "When do you ROLL the hide check, when do you attempt to use the skill, and must the two happen simultaneously". When you roll something doesn't have to be when you attempt something in this game. Disguise and forgery are obvious demostrations of attempting to use a skill which doesn't actually involve a roll for your attempt until a later time.

Do you use it significantly before you are observed (i.e. "in preparation") or when there is the possibility that you might be observed (i.e. "when you are opposed")? The text of the Hide skill indicates that it is usually "part of movement." This seems to indicate that you cannot use it "in preparation" but must use it "when there is the possibility you might be observed."

Usually, when a sentence contains the word "usually", it's not logical to conclude "you cannot" from it.

The continuation of the original logic, therefore, is that since you "might be observed" you are under conditions that are unsuitable for taking 10.

Why? Is "might be observed" always threatening? No. Is it always distracting? No. So why would you always be barred from taking 10 even if you are using it when you might be observed? Wouldn't it depend on what is observing you, how close they are, and whether or not they are an enemy?

 

[Hussar]

Why? Is "might be observed" always threatening? No. Is it always distracting? No. So why would you always be barred from taking 10 even if you are using it when you might be observed? Wouldn't it depend on what is observing you, how close they are, and whether or not they are an enemy?

Really, you use Take 10 for a routine check where you are pretty much certain of your success. I guess the question comes down to what is routine? For a 1st level fighter, trying to sneak past orcs is certainly not routine. For a 15th level ninja, it is.

I don't think you can really make blanket statements on when you can and cannot take 10 (although I think i have done so in this thread :/ ) What constitutes threatened? The language is somewhat vague, so it's going to come down to a DM's call on this.

I would have absolutely no problem with someone who is very certain that they are not going to be seen taking 10 on a hide check. The guy who sets up a blind for example. He's pretty confident of his abilities and that's reflected in him Taking 10. Mostly because it would really, really suck to roll a 1 and wouldn't really fit the situation all that well.

A scout (not the class) that spends most of his time moving carefully through enemy territory can certainly take 10. I'm not going to have him roll hide checks every 15 feet while he moves through the World's Largest Dungeon. Just say Take 10 and be done with it. Any observers that he might stumble across (assuming he is still in some concealment) are taking 10 on their spot checks as well.

It speeds the game up and that's what Take 10 is for.

 

[hong]

Technically, take 10 is not for speeding the game up (although it might do that). That's what take 20 is for. If you're in the situation where nothing stops a player from rolling a skill check over and over again, you can just take 20 and get on with the game.

Take 10 is for situations where the randomness that comes from rolling the dice would be implausible, because it's a routine thing/you're experienced at it/whatever. The stereotypical example is a blacksmith crafting items. He's been doing it for years, there are no distractions that could cause him to mess up, the environment is one he's familiar with; so you just take 10 and he gets the desired result with no problems.

Bearing this in mind, I wouldn't have a problem with taking 10 on Hide/Spot, if the environment is one that isn't already distracting/threatening. Basically, you can take 10 as long as people aren't actively searching for you, or there isn't a battle going on.

 

[irdeggman]

Technically, take 10 is not for speeding the game up (although it might do that). That's what take 20 is for. If you're in the situation where nothing stops a player from rolling a skill check over and over again, you can just take 20 and get on with the game.

Pg 10 DMG

Under taking 10

“Encourage players to use the take 10 rule. When a character is swimming or climbing a long distance, for example, this rule can really speed up play."

It seems to be one of the intents of taking 10, taking 20 and rolling damage along with the attack rolls - reducing the number of dice rolls speeds up game play.

 

[Sunfist]

The argument basically comes down to one point: when do you use the Hide skill?

The continuation of the original logic, therefore, is that since you "might be observed" you are under conditions that are unsuitable for taking 10.

I started out thinking that, too, but since studying the Take 10 rules some more, I think the argument is not when you use the skill, but are you distracted or threatened while using it.

That goes to your next point, about the possibility of being observed. I don't think someone trying to observe you qualifies for either of those conditions. For example, if you were picking a lock and on the other side of the locked door was an enemy observing you through bars in the door (but unable to harm you in any way), you could take a 10.

I think that in this situation, no one is threatening or distracting you from hiding. Them looking for you is clearly not threatening, and the reason why it's not distracting is because them searching for you is exactly what you're hiding from. It's part of what you are doing.

Anyway, that's how I see it now.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't think "routine" is part of the take 10 rule, and so I don't see the purpose in defining the word "routine" when it's not a rule to begin with.

If the players are just trying to move things along for purposes of plot, or because the game session is running long, or because they just actually want an average result, or don't want to add randomness to a particular event, or any of dozens of reasons, you might take 10.

I don't think it is routine to disguise oneself as the Prince, and forge the Prince's seal on a document. But, it's certainly the kind of situation where someone might want to take 10 to just assure themselves an average result, to avoid randomness.

The rule is that you can take 10 with any skill, provided you are not distracted or threatened, and provided that the text of the particular skill doesn't exclude taking 10 (like Use Magic Device). That's it. It doesn't have to be routine. It doesn't have to be something you are used to doing. It just has to be a non-distracting and non-threatening moment when you undergo the event that involves skill (even if the physical die roll would take place only once the event is challenged by an opposed roll later).

 

[DreadArchon]

...or because they just actually want an average result... you might take 10.

Or if you roll like I do, you take 10 whenever possible.

The rule is that you can take 10 with any skill, provided you are not distracted or threatened, and provided that the text of the particular skill doesn't exclude taking 10 (like Use Magic Device). That's it.

In fact, UMD is the only skill that you can't Take 10 on.

 

[TYPO5478]

On the other hand, if you Hide before you're Spotted, you roll the check when you Hide, and anyone looking for you can oppose it with Spot whenever they get a chance.

I am arguing that this is incorrect and not how the Hide skill works.

Which part of the Hide description makes you think that this is not how the Hide skill works?

Although I think a better question is this: why do you think you can attempt to Hide with an observer watching you (even though the rules say you can't)?

Statements like this lead me to believe that you must be missing the point here. No one is advocating this. I'm not sure why you insist that people are, and continue to argue against it.

I said that because Hussar said this:

You never answered the question. If I can make hide checks with no observer, why can I not take 20 on hide checks?

The answer, of course, is that you have to Hide without an observer; the rules say so.

The text of the Hide skill indicates that it is usually "part of movement." This seems to indicate that you cannot use it "in preparation" but must use it "when there is the possibility you might be observed."

That's funny. I would interpret it in exactly the opposite way. The fact that it is "part of movement" means that it must happen on your turn. You don't move on other people's turns, do you? If you're doing it on your turn, it's necessarily "in preparation" for something that will occur on someone else's turn. It's the reactive use of Spot that takes no action and can happen at any time. There is no reactive use of Hide; Hide has to happen first.

The continuation of the original logic, therefore, is that since you "might be observed" you are under conditions that are unsuitable for taking 10.

Why does "might be observed" imply threatened or distracted?