can you take 10 on a hide check?

[irdeggman]

Now as for taking 10 on a spot check.

Reading the example in the PHB (not contained in the FAQ) the strong implied meaning is that you are "being careful" when taking ten.

So I have difficulty saying that you can be careful when making a reflexive roll (like the normal spot check).

On the other hand if you are using the focused spot attempt - the standard action version I can readily see you being "careful" and taking 10.

The example of the guards and assumption they are taking 10 on spot checks also fits in this interpretation since, IMO, if they are "guarding" then they are not using the "reflexive" spot check but instead an "active" spot check because they are actively looking for something. Still can't take 20 without getting into trouble because that means they are looking at a 5 ft square for 2 minutes.

 

[Hussar]

Sorry, missed the Spotter part.

I would say that you can actively Spot for 2 minutes since there is no penalty for failure. Note, that spot doesn't actually require you to look at a single 5 foot square, so I'm not sure if that is a limitation. However, I would have a problem with guards that are automatically taking 20 in general spotting as well.

I would point out that it requires an action to spot something you failed to spot before. Otherwise, it's simply reflexive. I don't think you could take 20 on a reflexive check, since you can't really keep trying to get it right.

If, OTOH, you think that something is there, then you could take 20. For example, if you heard a noise, you could take 20 to spot something trying to sneak past you (assuming it stays in visual range for 2 minutes). Likewise, if you think that there is something behind that tree (for whatever reason), I have no problem with you staring at the tree for two minutes.

The big trick here is that spot specifically allows for retries. If you can retry an action, then you generally can take 20.

In any case, you can certainly take 10.

You determine success when your check is opposed by someone else's Spot. Why is this hard? If someone comes along to Spot you, they oppose your Hide check. If no one comes along, you automatically succeed (as you noted) as normal for opposed checks not contested (although your Hide check is ultimately moot).

What if someone comes along, but not on the route you expected? Say someone comes along from behind? Does my previous hide check still stand?

You never answered the question. If I can make hide checks with no observer, why can I not take 20 on hide checks?

 

[TYPO5478]

What if someone comes along, but not on the route you expected? Say someone comes along from behind? Does my previous hide check still stand?

Again, why is this hard? If you have cover or concealment on any particular angle from which you might be observed, you are hidden; if not, you're not.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.

Note that it doesn't say you need someone who can Spot you to attempt a Hide check.

You never answered the question. If I can make hide checks with no observer, why can I not take 20 on hide checks?

Again, I haven't claimed you can't take 20 on a Hide check; if you want an answer to that question, you're asking the wrong person. Although I think a better question is this: why do you think you can attempt to Hide with an observer watching you (even though the rules say you can't)?

 

[Mistwell]

The example in the FAQ is pretty good at explaining what is going on with that skill. Pretty much as long as you are looking at the same location you can retry - but it takes twenty times as long as the normal check does. So roughly 2 minutes of looking at the same location (5 ft square) continuously. During that 2 minutes the entire combat is likely to be resolved.

I think that is exactly what the military might do however, when coming across terrain that would make for a good ambush against them. I can see a commander saying to their scout "That heavy plant growth to the side of the road could hide a raiding party. Let me know if you see anything while we take a water break", followed by the scout taking 20 on each 5' section of the plant growth area.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would say that you can actively Spot for 2 minutes since there is no penalty for failure. Note, that spot doesn't actually require you to look at a single 5 foot square, so I'm not sure if that is a limitation. However, I would have a problem with guards that are automatically taking 20 in general spotting as well.

A guard taking 20 on Spot would be a Bad Idea, because of the way Take 20 works.

Let's say there is a slightly stuck door, a DC 5 Strength check. I have a Strength bonus of +7.

If I take 10, I open the door automatically.

If I roll the die, even on a 1, I succeed.

But if, before I even try the handle, I decide it looks tough and elect to take 20, it will take me twenty times as long (twenty move actions - ten rounds, a minute) to open the door, and I will fail repeatedly while I do so, until eventually I succeed with a result as though I had rolled a 20 - that is, a 27.

So if I'm a guard with a Spot bonus of +5, I can take 10 each round as a standard action. Each round, if something new and hidden appears, I'll get a reflexive Spot check (on which perhaps I cannot take 10, gaining a result between 6 and 25); I can also take 10 as a standard action to Spot something I have missed, with a result of 15.

If, instead, I take 20 on that Spot check, it will take me 20 times as long (twenty standard actions - twenty rounds, two minutes), and I will fail repeatedly. I won't get a result of 6; I'll get a result of Failure. A pink elephant could sneak past me on a unicycle, and my Spot-check-as-a-standard-action would fail to notice him. (I'd probably see him with my reflexive Spot check, but that's different.) At the end of twenty rounds, I would then get a result as if I had rolled a 20 - that is, a 25.

So by taking 20, I'm effectively halving my Spot capability for 95% of the time, in exchange for 6 seconds of Supervision every two minutes. That's a big window for people sneaking past.

-Hyp.

 

[Hussar]

Again, I haven't claimed you can't take 20 on a Hide check; if you want an answer to that question, you're asking the wrong person. Although I think a better question is this: why do you think you can attempt to Hide with an observer watching you (even though the rules say you can't)?

Nice twist.

Sorry, didn't say that you have to hide when you are observed. That's your thing. I said that you have to roll your hide check if and when there is a chance of being observed.

Note, by what you've said here, you are saying that a person hiding can never move out from behind cover. If that's true, what is the point of making a hide check in the first place? If I have cover, you can't see me, ever. If I automatically cannot hide if I don't have cover, then, attempting to move from behind cover while hiding as part of a move action would be impossible. The second I broke cover, I would no longer be using the Hide skill.

The entire point of an opposed check is that you make it in opposition to something. I suppose it doesn't matter if you roll beforehand so long as you are forced to keep that result. However, that's not the way skills usually work.

TYPO - Why do you feel that you can hide from no one? When you use the Hide skill, you are trying to not be seen. If there is no one around to see you, who are you hiding from? Why is that different from sitting at home and practicing a Bluff check?

I would say that without opposition, you have no way of judging how well you perform the skill. I can think that I'm hidden all day long, but, until there is someone to see me, I'm not doing anything.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note, by what you've said here, you are saying that a person hiding can never move out from behind cover. If that's true, what is the point of making a hide check in the first place? If I have cover, you can't see me, ever.

It does seem that Hide only really works if a/ a total cover/concealment situation is becoming a cover/concealment situation, or b/ you've used Bluff to create a distraction.

If you're standing in a shadow, in direct line of sight to a creature, you are observed and cannot hide. If you're standing around a corner from a shadow which is in direct line of sight to a creature, you cannot be seen and need not hide.

It seems that the Hide check will work if you move from around the corner into the shadow, since you are not observed before moving and therefore can hide as part of your movement.

If the creature comes around the corner (and you are in shadow), then we have, again, a total cover situation becoming a concealment situation. But it's not your turn, so you can't attempt to Hide now; you must have taken the time to Hide before the creature came around the corner.

-Hyp.

 

[TYPO5478]

Note, by what you've said here, you are saying that a person hiding can never move out from behind cover.

...or concealment. But yes, that's true: if you want to stay hidden, you have to stay behind some sort of cover or within some sort of concealment. If you can move while staying behind cover or concealment, then you can move while hiding; if not, you can't. If you are neither behind cover nor within concealment, you are not hiding (per the definition of the skill).

If that's true, what is the point of making a hide check in the first place? If I have cover, you can't see me, ever.

Not entirely true. You can't be seen behind total cover (or concealment). You can be seen behind anything less than total cover (or concealment), hence the reason for the Hide check.

If I automatically cannot hide if I don't have cover, then, attempting to move from behind cover while hiding as part of a move action would be impossible. The second I broke cover, I would no longer be using the Hide skill.

Yes, moving out from behind cover and staying hidden at the same time is impossible (unless you're moving into concealment). If you leave your cover or concealment, you're not hiding anymore. I don't know why you think you could stay hidden with nothing to hide behind.

TYPO - Why do you feel that you can hide from no one? When you use the Hide skill, you are trying to not be seen. If there is no one around to see you, who are you hiding from?

For the purposes of D&D, I consider the definition of the word "hide" to be "obscure your location using nearby cover or concealment." You don't need someone looking for you to be able to do that. It may be unnecessary, but it isn't impossible.

If you're standing in a shadow, in direct line of sight to a creature, you are observed and cannot hide.

...unless the shadow you're standing in provides concealment. Then you can Hide (or are already hidden). If you were standing in the light while in line of sight, you couldn't step into the shadows in an attempt to Hide.

 

[Mistwell]

...or concealment. But yes, that's true: if you want to stay hidden, you have to stay behind some sort of cover or within some sort of concealment. If you can move while staying behind cover or concealment, then you can move while hiding; if not, you can't. If you are neither behind cover nor within concealment, you are not hiding (per the definition of the skill).

Not entirely true. You can't be seen behind total cover (or concealment). You can be seen behind anything less than total cover (or concealment), hence the reason for the Hide check.

Yes, moving out from behind cover and staying hidden at the same time is impossible (unless you're moving into concealment). If you leave your cover or concealment, you're not hiding anymore. I don't know why you think you could stay hidden with nothing to hide behind.

For the purposes of D&D, I consider the definition of the word "hide" to be "obscure your location using nearby cover or concealment." You don't need someone looking for you to be able to do that. It may be unnecessary, but it isn't impossible.

...unless the shadow you're standing in provides concealment. Then you can Hide (or are already hidden). If you were standing in the light while in line of sight, you couldn't step into the shadows in an attempt to Hide.

You should read the Complete Adventurer HIDE skill text (pg. 101):

'Move Between Cover: If you're already hiding (thanks to cover or concealment) and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that does not offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide youpossess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. If you move at more than one-half your speed, you also take the normal penalty on Hide checks when moving quickly (-10 for moving faster than normal speed, or -5 for moving between half speed and normal speed).

You can also use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you until you attack or make some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."

 

[Hypersmurf]

...unless the shadow you're standing in provides concealment. Then you can Hide (or are already hidden). If you were standing in the light while in line of sight, you couldn't step into the shadows in an attempt to Hide.

I think you misunderstand what he was getting at.

Let's say I am standing in shadows and not hiding.

I have concealment, and therefore I can attempt to hide... but only if I an not under direct observation.

If there is someone in line of sight, then since I am not hiding, I am under direct observation... so even though I have concealment, I cannot attempt to hide until he stops observing.

He will only stop observing if a/ I use Bluff to distract him, or b/ the situation changes to block his line of sight - that is, I gain total cover or concealment.

There are two necessary conditions to hide. I must have cover or concealment (which I have); also, I must be unobserved (which, right now, I do not have, since he's standing right there).

-Hyp.