Can you "Take 20" to Hide?

[Hypersmurf]

No, not at all. In fact, your example to me fits perfectly into my line of thinking. In each case, the last Hide check made prevails.

And in the case of Take 20, the last check made is a 20.

Taking 20 is not the same as a naked 20.

The eventual result is identical to a naked 20.

Obviously, failing to hide means you not hidden. Since failing to hide from Fred the Goblin carries a penalty for failure...

Failing to hide from Fred the Goblin has an identical result to not-hiding from Fred the Goblin. Failure to hide carries no penalty, just as failing to open a lock has an identical result to not-opening a lock, and carries no penalty.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

And in the case of Take 20, the last check made is a 20.



The eventual result is identical to a naked 20.

... preceeded by failure.

Failing to hide from Fred the Goblin has an identical result to not-hiding from Fred the Goblin. Failure to hide carries no penalty, just as failing to open a lock has an identical result to not-opening a lock, and carries no penalty.

-Hyp.

I can fail to pick the lock and then pick it. But once I fail to hide, I am noticed, and cannot hide.

I can not begin to see how the two examples you give are the same scenario. Opening a lock is a perfect example of something that can be repeatedly attempted, and successfully beating someone's Spot check is a perfect example of something that you don't want to fail at even once.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But once I fail to hide, I am noticed, and cannot hide.

Unless the spotter stops looking.

-Hyp.

 

[airwalkrr]

In that case, the default condition is your state before you make the Hide check - not hiding. There is, then, no penalty for failure, because failing has the same result as not-attempting.

-Hyp.

So the default condition of a bound character is unbound? Either you fail to see how Use Rope and Hide are analogous (in which case I think a good reason is required), or you are putting up a straw man again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So the default condition of a bound character is unbound?

You said that the Hide check is made at the time you hide.

If that makes me automatically hidden, then I have already succeeded at the check; if I cannot fail, there can be no penalty for failure.

If it doesn't make me automatically hidden, then the default condition is not-hidden, and failing the check (when someone opposes) leaves me no worse off than I was before attempting to hide, and there is no penalty for failure.

Either I am not hidden until someone opposes the check, or I am automatically hidden and I cannot fail. In either case, there isn't a penalty for failure.

-Hyp.

 

[airwalkrr]

I would like to pose a question to Hyp. What basis do you have for thinking a character with a +20 to Hide with a friend who has a +9 to Spot "aiding" him in the method you proscribe is able to discern the difference between rolling a 10 and a 20?

Hiding Character: *rolls a 25*Am I hidden yet?
Spotting Character: *takes 20 for a 29* Nope, keep trying.
Hiding Character: *rolls a 30* Am I hidden yet?
Spotting Character: *takes 20 for a 29* Umm, yes, but you can do better. At least I think so because you haven't tried 20 times yet.

How is the spotting character ability to ensure the hiding character gets any better than a 10 on his d20 roll? As you put it, any character "aiding" a hiding character should be able to help him take 10, regardless of their respective bonuses. Please explain to me how the "aiding" character is able to provide any better feedback than that if his Spot bonus is inferior to his ally's Hide bonus?

As I have stated before, the only situation in which your scenario would mechanically be able to let one take 20 is if the character making Spot checks has a Spot modifier 1 less than the Hide modifier of his ally.

 

[airwalkrr]

You said that the Hide check is made at the time you hide.

If that makes me automatically hidden, then I have already succeeded at the check; if I cannot fail, there can be no penalty for failure.

If it doesn't make me automatically hidden, then the default condition is not-hidden, and failing the check (when someone opposes) leaves me no worse off than I was before attempting to hide, and there is no penalty for failure.

Either I am not hidden until someone opposes the check, or I am automatically hidden and I cannot fail. In either case, there isn't a penalty for failure.

-Hyp.

You are hidden until someone spots you. That is the definition of hiding. Just because I have hidden doesn't mean someone cannot come along and find me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would like to pose a question to Hyp. What basis do you have for thinking a character with a +20 to Hide with a friend who has a +9 to Spot "aiding" him in the method you proscribe is able to discern the difference between rolling a 10 and a 20?

The difference between 10 and 20 is irrelevant. When you're taking 20, the two possible results are fail, and 20. The friend with the +9 to Spot can tell the difference between fail and 20.

You are hidden until someone spots you.

It's unknown whether you are hidden or not hidden until someone attempts to spot you.

-Hyp.

 

[airwalkrr]

The difference between 10 and 20 is irrelevant. When you're taking 20, the two possible results are fail, and 20. The friend with the +9 to Spot can tell the difference between fail and 20.

How? The only possible explanation I can think of is a meta reason that ignores the spirit of the take 20 rule. But I'd rather hear your explanation. I can't think of one that doesn't depend on the characters knowing how D&D mechanics work.

 

[airwalkrr]

It's unknown whether you are hidden or not hidden until someone attempts to spot you.

If I make a Hide check, then someone comes along and fails his Spot check. I am hidden, correct? That character continues to loiter in the area and then another character enters the area and succeeds his Spot check. I am nowhidden, but at the same time I am seen because one character can see me and the other cannot. But before the other character came along, I was merely hidden. But that first character coming along did not make me hidden. I was hidden before he tried to Spot me.