Can you trip someone standing up?

[two]

I'm already on record as saying if you trip somebody who is attempting to stand up, you are donig just that: tripping them while they are attempting to do something. If you mess up the "thing" they are attempting to do, that's too bad for them. They lost their chance to do it.

Spellcasting, for example.

Mage casts a spell next to a fighter. Fighter gets an AOO, does 50 points of damage. Ouch. By this reasoning of some above, the Wizard takes 50 points of damage, (which occurred before the spellcasting), and then gets to start and complete spellcasting, without a chance of failure.

Sorry, no.

Some actions provoke AOO's. They "provoke" them. The actions have started. Somebody is trying to accomplish something. Will they do it? Will they drink the potion, cast the spell, etc?

It depends on the AOO result.

If it does a lot of damage, the spell might be interrupted. How can this be if the AOO's always resolve BEFORE the action even began?

The potion drinking might be interrupted, forcing a concentration check. How can this be if the AOO was resolved BEFORE the action even began?

RESOLVING an AOO before the action is not the same as saying the AOO took place in game time before the action that provoked it. That's nonsensical.

It's just a game mechanical rule. You first RESOLVE the AOO. You could also RESOLVE the provoking action first, and then the AOO, but that would be a waste of player's time (because sometimes the fireball did not go off becasue the AOO hit and interrupted the spell, which was only determined after the spell damage was rolled -- this is a bad way to do things, but does not change the in-game effect at all, i.e. the spell failed).

How the heck do people ever stop spellcasters if they play that AOO's occur discretely before the provoking action? Do you always have to "ready" an action to interrupt spellcasters, that's the only way to do it?

 

[Ottergame]

After carefully reading the AoO rules, I've come to this.

You don't need to make a trip attack as your AoO to prevent someone from standing up, damaging them with a normal attack aborts their action, wasting it. They therefore remain prone, and have to spend a second move action to stand up.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Well, while nobody probably cares what I think...this is how I imagine that situation. I think that tripping someone who stands from prone is a no-no. The way I see it, they're on the ground already, you cannot trip them.

If you would like, you may attempt to grapple and pin them down, but no more trips...

That's my 2 cents...which is usually not even worth that much. But you're getting it for free, so no complaining.

 

[0-hr]

So if someone starts to stand up, triggers an AoO, and get's tripped. What prevents them from finishing their "stand up" action? This isn't like a spell or potion that you interrupt and nullify. They draw an AoO and finish their action (like someone moving out of a threatened square would).

I personally, don't buy that there is an "in between" state. As somone who doesn't have a trip-based character, it seems pretty clear to me:

You are "prone".
You start to stand up.
You possibly trigger an AoO.
You finish standing up.
You are now "not prone".

Since you are still prone when the AoO goes off, I would disallow a trip out of common sense (though I would grant a +4 to hit for a melee attack against a prone opponent). But if some spiked-chain weilding munchkin got all rule-lawyery on me, I still don't see how the victim doesn't end up standing anyway. Are they "double prone" now? I fully understand the rules on spell interruption and potion interruption, but I can't find a thing about stand-up interruption. .

Oh well, another unresolvable question. No doubt the Sage and customer service will put out some random and contradictory responses on the issue before too long.

 

[Unseelie]

I choose to avoid the arguement in the game I'm in... when someone attempts to stand up after I trip them, I'll hit them with a stunning blow instead.

 

[James McMurray]

I know a lot of rogues who would say the same thing about fortification armor and improved uncanny dodge. Sneak attack is a powerful mechanic with specific counters, same with tripping.

What? That the DM shouldn't have to give every humanoid foe fortification and uncanny dodge so they can remain standing in combat? Of course he shouldn't. They can always maneuver in such a way that they aren't flanked, or are dificult to flank. Alternatively, they can concentrate their fire on the low-AC, low-HP rogue and remove the threat. Maneuvering can't avoid trips unless you also avoid melee altogether. Fighters performing trips have higher ACs and higher HPs, and are much harder to concentrate fire effectively against because of that.

You're comparing apples and oranges. One is a class ability with very specific counters which are also useful in other situations besides just being sneak attacked by a rogue. The other is a rules loophole whose counters are almost completely useless unless you happen to be up against someone who is tripping you and trying to trip you again before you even stand up.

The problem is that sneak attack is an intentional mechanic (with balance already built in), recursive tripping is loophole that you have to interpret the rules to allow.

 

[0-hr]

damaging them with a normal attack aborts their action,

If someone moves by you and you hit them with an AoO, can they keep moving?

If you bull rush someone and they hit you with the AoO, can you continue your bull rush?

If you try to strike someone with your bare fist and they damage you with the AoO, do you get to finish your attack?

 

[Lamoni]

I'm already on record as saying if you trip somebody who is attempting to stand up, you are donig just that: tripping them while they are attempting to do something. If you mess up the "thing" they are attempting to do, that's too bad for them. They lost their chance to do it.

Spellcasting, for example.

Mage casts a spell next to a fighter. Fighter gets an AOO, does 50 points of damage. Ouch. By this reasoning of some above, the Wizard takes 50 points of damage, (which occurred before the spellcasting), and then gets to start and complete spellcasting, without a chance of failure.

Sorry, no.

...

How the heck do people ever stop spellcasters if they play that AOO's occur discretely before the provoking action? Do you always have to "ready" an action to interrupt spellcasters, that's the only way to do it?

I don't know why people always bring up spellcasters. I think that is quite different. And there is even something written about them.

To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
Injury: If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

Casting a spell requires a lot of concentration... that is why it is stopped unless the caster makes a concentration check. Moving doesn't take much concentration. That is why PC's don't have to roll the dice to see if they can continue to move past more opponents even if they took damage from the first AoO. All you have to do is check two things. One, are you still alive? Two, are you still standing?

Standing up is a move action. Why not compare it to other move actions? Drinking a potion has come up. If you drink a potion, that doesn't require much thought to whether you can continue the action after the AoO. You need to check two things. One, are you still alive? Two, are you still holding the potion?

Therefore I argue that to stand up, you need to check two things. One, are you still alive? Two, are you still prone? Since a trip attempt will never cause you to be something other than prone, the only way an AoO can prevent an attempt to stand up is if they kill the person (or just drop their HP's to less than 1)

Again... don't say that the person went from prone to not-prone and then to prone. Unless they stood up before the AoO, they were always prone. I am sure a trip attempt would cause for a much more awkward standing up, but attacking someone while they move past you does the same thing. They probably take several extra steps as they get the wind knocked out of them as you bash them in the stomach.

I am still a little confused as to why people argue that it is not this way so vehemently since almost everyone is in agreement that it shouldn't be allowed. I have good news for you, by the rules it isn't allowed. In your own rules you can add a few states between prone and standing, then I would agree with you since the person would go from prone to not prone and then to prone again. Therefore another stand-up attempt would be required. However since they never leave the prone state, an additional stand-up attempt is not required. The first attempt does just fine.

 

[RigaMortus]

If someone moves by you and you hit them with an AoO, can they keep moving?

If you bull rush someone and they hit you with the AoO, can you continue your bull rush?

If you try to strike someone with your bare fist and they damage you with the AoO, do you get to finish your attack?

If someone tries to grapple you, and you hit them and do damage, do they get to continue their grapple?

 

[James McMurray]

After carefully reading the AoO rules, I've come to this.

You don't need to make a trip attack as your AoO to prevent someone from standing up, damaging them with a normal attack aborts their action, wasting it. They therefore remain prone, and have to spend a second move action to stand up.

Can you point out the rule that states that?