Can your players know too much?

[IcyCool]

I've said it before: "Players do not need to know how the rules work or what the monster's stats are in order to have fun."

 

[Crothian]

I've said it before: "Players do not need to know how the rules work or what the monster's stats are in order to have fun."

Completely true. But players that know how the rules work and know all the monster stats does not prevent the fun. I'd go so far to say that player game knowledge has no direct effect with fun. It can be a small part of the fun equation.

 

[Stalker0]

Completely true. But players that know how the rules work and know all the monster stats does not prevent the fun. I'd go so far to say that player game knowledge has no direct effect with fun. It can be a small part of the fun equation.

Ah yes the fun equation, the most important subject in college

 

[Storm Raven]

I've said it before: "Players do not need to know how the rules work or what the monster's stats are in order to have fun."

But if they do, that usually doesn't prevent them from having fun either. And usually makes the DMs job easier. The players should be conversant enough with the rules that they are able to run their characters without having to be told the mechanics of what they are trying to do all the time. If they know more than that, it isn't an issue.

I also find the idea that there are "players" and there are "DMs" to be an odd one, and always have. I have never[/] played in a group in which there was one person who exclusively DMed and a bunch of people who were exclusively players. Every group had two, or three people who had DMed the group at some point, plus a couple others who were intent on doing so at some point in the future. often the people who weren't DMing the current group were DMing another group, or working on what they were going to do when they decided to "step behind the screen" as it were.

And, to tell the truth, when I have DMed, I have almost always found that other people who had DMed before were, in general, more fun to have as players. In every edition of the game. Apparently, their knowledge of the rules didn't get in the way of their enjoyment, then or now. I find the idea that a player's knowledge of the rules somehow causes problems to be simply mystifying.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

IAnd then there's the fact that if the DM tries to make stuff up to improve the game the players often cetch him on it.

This sentence is the essence of the problem.

House rules shouldn't be snuck past the players and the players shouldn't feel like they've achieved some sort of victory when they catch the DM winging it.

 

[Storm Raven]

And then there's the fact that if the DM tries to make stuff up to improve the game the players often cetch him on it. Infact, my players in 3E used to site the rules and page numbers more then I...and would already know what they needed to role on any die to hit a monster (having memorized them the first night they read the book).

What? For where do you find players who cry "foul" when the DM makes stuff up? I make new challeneges all the time, modifying creatures to suit the campaign, for example, or changing humanoid opponent's equipment. I have never had a player make a fuss over this sort of thing. of course, I let the players know ahead of time when I implement a house rule (although modified opponents does not count as such), so there is no need to "cetch" me on it.

I have always found that being open, honest, and up-front with the players in a campaign works much better than trying to trick them by changing the rules without telling them.

 

[gizmo33]

I can think of at least 100 things more interesting about a campaign world or adventure than the AC of a particular monster. IMO all of the interesting things about the game are outside of the rulebook unless the game consists of standing in a featureless room and fighting monsters in the order that they appear in the monster manual.

And what does "making up stuff to improve the game" mean? Do you mean your players object if you introduce a new spell or magic item into the game?

 

[Naeolin]

I'll freely admit to being one of the players who tends to know monster stats off the top of his head, though not to the point where I can recall every saving throw or BAB progression. I've never really had a problem with knowing too much about the monsters I was fighting, but then, I'm very careful to keep OOC and IC separate. In fact, in one game a good friend of mine DM'ed once, each of the characters had VERY little prior exposure to monsters. My character started out being familiar with a couple of monsters, because he was from the frontier region of the land, but even then we're basically talking about goblin and orcs only.

Even so, my DM was and is a big fan of not keeping monsters as written. He was very fond of giving basic Humanoids levels in PC classes, and better equipment. Our party once walked into an ambush set up by a bunch of Hobgoblin mercenaries, and let me tell you that was quite a battle.

We discovered a secret door, activated it, and came face to face with a Hobgoblin wielding a reach weapon. On top of that, there were two archers in the back corner who had been expecting us. The lead character took a hit from the lead Hobgoblin and two arrows in the surprise round, and because of the narrowness of the hallway it took a round or two to take it out so that we could rush the archers.

So yeah, I can see why it would be dangerous for players to know too much, but that doesn't mean the DM has to let them obtain the knowledge necessary for it to become detrimental. If the DM wants to give orcs SR 30 and perfect flight, then that's his prerogative. Unless they suddenly manifest these abilities mid-fight in a desperate effort to make the battle last longer, or any and all lore gathered on orcs previously never mentioned this ability, I don't have a problem with it.

As far as your characters know, that's how they've always been.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Quite frankly I'm sick of players not knowing enough of the rules ("for the last %*&#ing time charge is an attack bonus not a damage bonus").

The DM can always alter his traps/creatures so that the players will be surprised (not every ogre wears hide armor and has an 8 dexterity for instance). So if his players are paticuarly well read of the MM he can mix things up. Or simply change the appearance of the monsters and rename them (ogres to alligatormen).

 

[grimwell]

Can players know too much? No.

Can players abuse their knowledge? Yes.

There is a telling difference between knowing the rules as well as, or even better, than the DM and using that knowledge to interfere with his/her game.

This is an example of BAD:
"The rules clearly state that a X has an AC of Y, so my characters roll of Z should have resulted in a hit. Either you are fudgeing things, have tweaked the X's monster manual entry, or are just forgetting the rules!"

When I'm a player, I roll with the DM's punches and style. If he/she has house rules, I accept them as a player in their game. I don't question that. If said DM asks for help on a ruling and I can help, I do. If not, I shut up. When 3E first came out, most of the campaigns I was runing/playing in were all in a crucible to learn the rules so we were all stopping the game to ask questions no matter who was DM, but that was the point.

In a normal game, all bets are off and you respect the DM or don't play in their game if you don't like their style.

Personally though, knowledge of the rules and systems are almost worthless in the face of a well designed campaign and plot. Who cares what AC a griffin has, I wan't to know why it's being piloted by a goblin who is using a javelin of lightning!!! Especially since he's flying the Elven King's colors!!!