D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

[pemerton]

I suspect in roleplay heavy games that combat balance didn't matter as much, but in combat heavy games the combat balance mattered more

<snip>

I wonder if this divide has any corrolate with people saying that you can't roleplay in 4e? I certainly don't believe that's true, but on the other hand, perhaps people that were roleplay heavy were more happy with imbalance in 3e? Those that were more combat heavy (I'm not sterotyping here, but I'm sorta drawing a mental venn diagram and classifying different sides of a scale) found that the balance of 4e really improved the game.

This seems to presuppose that combat and roleplaying are at odds. There are a number of RPGs whose design is grounded in a denial of this presupposition - at least Burning Wheel, The Riddle of Steel, and 4e.

If the orientation of a game is that roleplaying, in that game, should be focused on combat; and, if a game treats combat as one of the most important sites of conflict; then the character and quality of its combat rules will make a signficant contribution to the games support of roleplaying. (Of course, how mechanical balance would factor into this is a further matter. But it's probably not going to be unimportant.)

If combat is not a major focus of the game, then balanced combat doesn't really matter much.

If outside stuff is a major focus of the game, then having that be explored and interesting does matter quite a bit.

The 15 minute adventuring day is not just about combat. As VB and others have indicated, it's also about the mid-to-high level wizard's dominance of non-combat (via Rope Trick, teleportation, etc).

A system which gives the wizard less of that sort of control is, I think, less likely to see the 15 minute adventuring day.

They made combat better balanced (but perhaps less "nifty", e.g. illusions tricking enemies etc.).

This is probably extraneous to the general point under discussion, but I don't understand how or why enemies can't be tricked in 4e.

What if 5e fixes both issues?!

Do you have any particular design in mind? Eg you could remove the wizard's ability to nova; or you could remove the wizard's control over the non-combat environment. Either would go some way to removing the systemic underpinnings of the 15-minute day (4e opts for both). Either is likely to be controversial in some quarters. But keeping (or reintroducing) either feature is also likely to be controversial (personally, for example, I have no real interest in going back to a game in which PCs can nova, both for balance reasons but more importantly for aesthetic reasons).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Do you have any particular design in mind? Eg you could remove the wizard's ability to nova; or you could remove the wizard's control over the non-combat environment. Either would go some way to removing the systemic underpinnings of the 15-minute day (4e opts for both). Either is likely to be controversial in some quarters. But keeping (or reintroducing) either feature is also likely to be controversial (personally, for example, I have no real interest in going back to a game in which PCs can nova, both for balance reasons but more importantly for aesthetic reasons).

If I were makeing 5e I would mix 2e wizard with 4e.

You get at 1st level 1 encounter and 2 daily powers, at 2nd level you get 1 more daily and 2 utlilties at level 3 you get another encounter, at level 5 2 more daily (now at 5th level power) at 6th you get one more 1st level , and 2 utlility powers. at 7th level you get an at will attack, at 9th level you replace a 1st level daily (you have 4 at this point) with a 9th level one. at 10th you get another 1 utlilities and another 5th level daily.

so at 10th level you would have:

1 at will (lv 7) 2 encounter (1st, 3rd) 7 daily (3 1st 3 5th and 1 9th) 5 utlitlty(2 2nd 2 6th 1 10th)

and I would make most of there utlities daily, and about 30% encounters.
I would also give them rituel caster, and int mod free rit to start and 2 every 3 levels so an 18 int wizard at 10th level would have 10 free rituels plus any he bought.

I would give them a class feature every 4 levels that lets them 'master' rituels and do them at less cost (1/2 cost or 1/4th if taken twice)

after 10th level I would start up gradeing slots

so at 13th you replace your 1st level encounter at 15th you replace a 1st level daily

 

[Pentius]

-snip-

If you play a 3.5 game that focuses on avoiding the mechanics, then you can alleviate the balance issues, but in my experience a roleplay heavy game still puts heavy emphasis on skill use. A Fighter gets just as hosed there. Both Fighters and Wizards get 2+int for skills, but wizards have the advantage of rewarding a heavy investment in Intelligence much more, as well as having knowledge based skills instead of physical based ones. Even then, the wizards large array of non-combat oriented spells stands as an entire method of contribution the Fighter simply doesn't have an analogue for.

The players of the Fighter and the Wizard can both create roleplaying opportunities, if they try. But the Fighter has to create them, whereas the Wizard's sheet hands him an array of interesting abilities right off the bat.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

XP Rewards for having good stats.

This one I have to take exception with. It absolutely models real life. The stronger, more agile baseball players advance through the minor leagues faster and the best of these hit the major leagues at age 19-21(Derek Jeter, Ty Cobb, Al Kaline, Starlin Castro) while the less gifted might work their ass off and come up around age 25 or so. It also applies to mental stats. Hell, some kids are so smart they graduate college at age 15. Fact is, good stats make it easier to level up in any profession.

 

[Pentius]

This one I have to take exception with. It absolutely models real life. The stronger, more agile baseball players advance through the minor leagues faster and the best of these hit the major leagues at age 19-21(Derek Jeter, Ty Cobb, Al Kaline, Starlin Castro) while the less gifted might work their ass off and come up around age 25 or so. It also applies to mental stats. Hell, some kids are so smart they graduate college at age 15. Fact is, good stats make it easier to level up in any profession.

Realism, fun, purpose of games, etc. You're not new, you've heard it before, more than likely.

 

[Hussar]

This one I have to take exception with. It absolutely models real life. The stronger, more agile baseball players advance through the minor leagues faster and the best of these hit the major leagues at age 19-21(Derek Jeter, Ty Cobb, Al Kaline, Starlin Castro) while the less gifted might work their ass off and come up around age 25 or so. It also applies to mental stats. Hell, some kids are so smart they graduate college at age 15. Fact is, good stats make it easier to level up in any profession.

But, how do you model that? Are the better baseball players better because they have better base stats, or are they just a bit higher level? After all, higher stats already cause you to act as if you were higher level, so, why double up the advantage?

I'll use 3e just because the math is easier. A 40 point buy value character is easily acting one level higher than a 25 point buy value character (regardless of how those stats were generated). The 40 PBV character hits better, has more skills, more hit points, better AC, and is in every measurable way a higher level character than the 25 PBV character.

So, why should the system compound that by actually having the character advance faster?

IME, the only thing the xp for stats thing did was push for more cheating when creating characters.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

This one I have to take exception with. It absolutely models real life. The stronger, more agile baseball players advance through the minor leagues faster and the best of these hit the major leagues at age 19-21(Derek Jeter, Ty Cobb, Al Kaline, Starlin Castro) while the less gifted might work their ass off and come up around age 25 or so. It also applies to mental stats. Hell, some kids are so smart they graduate college at age 15. Fact is, good stats make it easier to level up in any profession.

Except that it rewards having good stats with something extra beyond the reward inherent in having better stats. And the game rewards certain stats even more by tying high stats in with Psionics. Balance, schmalance.

A major league mercenary baseball player is already getting bonuses to his batting and catching from having good stats. A lesser player will never catch up to him even at the same experience bonus, because of the bonus that the mercenary pro gets from his stats.

Now a bonus to XP from just intelligence or wisdom I could understand - you retain knowledge and learning better, and notice things that work or don't work. Being strong should not help you learn any faster than being quick on your feet, and less than either retaining information (intelligence) or perceiving differences (wisdom) even if you are a professional at swinging a baseball bat sword....

Not that it matters - if it floats your boat, then sail on! I just don't happen to agree.

The Auld Grump

 

[Lanefan]

I find training to be a problem in AD&D: It's not in OD&D, it's not in Basic D&D. It mucks up a bunch of AD&D adventures as written (where are the PCs training during Pharaoh, for instance, let alone Descent into the Depths of the Earth). See also Gary's response to this problem.

This is why they invented houserules.

I don't mind training in its concept - if nothing else, it forces some down-time in town and gives the rest of the world a chance to catch up. But the 1e written rules aren't very practical and - as you note - really clash with the design of some adventures. So we fixed it.

Without a doubt, the way healing surges works owes more to 3E than 1E: In mid-level 3E, the cleric would heal everyone to full every night (esp. with a wand), so the 4E design just removes the need for the wand (and also extend it to 1st level)... and the healer.

Yep, 3e has its own quirks and headaches, one of which you've hit on here...

What you describe here makes sense for me in relation to AD&D play.

But in 3E even low level casters can easily make wands and scrolls. Wands will tend to ensure they don't run out of spells. And scrolls will tend to ensure that they have ready access to a much wider range of spells than those memorised.

Does either of you use any particular techniques to control the proliferation of wands and scrolls in your games?

...and another of which pemerton nails here.

The answer, of course, is to make item creation 1e-style: difficult, time-consuming, expensive, and something no PC would ever want to do.

As for the other issue raised earlier - that of commute-by-teleport - the answer again lies with 1e where teleport carries a significant and potentially deadly risk factor.

Lan-"1e gave the answers two decades before 3e posed the questions"-efan

 

[JamesonCourage]

[MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]

The 15MAD/early-onset-LFQW is only a problem in a very specific and very narrow and very inflexible style of play.

There, now isn't this pretty much WORD FOR WORD what I've been saying has been argued in this thread?

It's close (but not at all "WORD FOR WORD"). Want to show me where Imaro and two or more other posters said "that there is no problem with the mechanics" prior to your claims I quoted? For reference, BotE made this quote on 22nd August 2011, 11:07 AM. You made your other claims on 18th August 2011, 06:01 PM, or earlier. I asked you to back that up.

I'm willing to drop this if you want. And, if you give a reply that isn't a question, I will. If you want me to clarify again, let me know.

 

[MerricB]

The answer, of course, is to make item creation 1e-style: difficult, time-consuming, expensive, and something no PC would ever want to do.

I do wonder if magic item creation was something done in oD&D and many AD&D campaigns. Not perhaps major items, but scrolls, potions and the occasional wand?

Cheers!