Canting Crew Now Available

[JoeGKushner]

Actually, my reviews usually go to Pyramid (a pay site), OgreCave, Open Game Exchange, RPG.net, and a few other palces. For some reason my E-mail account is considered already in use on EN World so I can't do any reviews here.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Canting Crew was too expensive for the page count, with too much space devoted to the cant dictionary. Sure there was some good info in there, but not $35 worth!

I really wanted to like this book and support Gary, but $35 is $35, after all, and if the book doesn't deliver, I don't buy it, no matter who wrote it. The book seemed kind of weird in the way it presented information, like some 1e era stream of consciousness style... I found it hard to read and harder to find crunchy bits in.

TBH, I really haven't liked any of Troll Lord's products so far. I haven't bought any because I think they are *very poor* in their presentation, inside and out (like the cartoonish Fantastic World cover art or the crammed together tiny type size of Codex of Erde--another problem I have is their naming conventions.... Erde rhymes with turd, Yakhund and other silly sounding names or looking creatures drive me nuts, plus their company logo looks really dumb). While Canting Crew is their best cover to date (along with the Lost City of Gaxmoor), the interior design still leaves much to be desired. TLG products just sit and gather dust at my local games store (with the exception of Lost City and Codex, though sales are still in the 2-4 copies range after months in release).

Sorry, TLG, but I think you need to try harder and also rethink putting out a $35 HC that is basically a $20 splatbook (certainly CC is by the flimsy page count alone). Not trying to be a jerk here, just offering my unvarnished opinions on your product line.

 

[Troll Lord]

Hey Kap,

Thanks for the words! Though your post came right in the middle of a massive joke fest here and caused a smidgen of a sobering affect...dag nabbit!!

Of course your entitled to your opinions, and we respect that. But, I have to correct you on a few things... Its not pronounced URRDE, its a German word and is pronounced AIRDE. Yakhund is actually Vakhund! And the statement that Codex and Lost City are the only things selling is good news as those are the only releases we've had since last summer.

You didn't like the cover for Fantastic!! Thank you! I hate the cover, hated it when we bought and hate it now. It is a great module though. Good for a solid night's play!

Now, I'm not going to drone on about the CC. Its out there and you be the judge (as they say in some show or the other), but the book is a solid RPG aid. Its not jam packed with MORE d20 spells, p-classes, magic items and so on. I agree with Joe in the post above, there are too many of those. The CC is a solid sourcebook for criminal underworld design. Its a template. The whole book is a template for creating you own city scape and peopling it with all manner of Rogue and Thief.

The price is high, but we have extra-ordinary expenses with this one (obvious ones) and it does have a fold out map. If it didn't have the map, it would have been set at $29.95. Though I think I've said this enough.

I will say this. Posts like the Kaps here and Joe's, earlier, are very good for us and come at the perfect time. We constantly work to improve or presentation and formatting (no industry insiders here, its been a learning curve you wouldn't believe... I was the one who voted not to have laminate covers on our first mods "all these boys want to do is game, they carethat much about the cover ) and we have already taken these crits to the draft board with the next Gygaxian Fantasy book, GG's World Builder.

As any rate, I've rambled on enough. And ..Kap, I promise, no more Fantastic covers!!

Steve

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Okay, it may be pronounced Airde but it looks like URRD to the untrained eye (mine).

Yakhund/Vakhund: It was hard for me to tell which letter it started with due to the font. Still don't like the word, LOL.

TLG isn't the only company I haven't bought anything from yet: Fast Forward (not counting Campaign Magazine #2--I mean their overpriced, "no concept of how d20 works" rulebooks or the ridiculously bloated nonsense that is Dungeonworld) and Mystic Eye Games (too dark and muddled looking covers and interiors) are two of the other more well-known companies who haven't released anything I thought was worth buying. I've bought at least one thing from every other "brand name" third party d20 publisher, I think. Generally, I buy the most third party d20 products from AEG, FFG and (the Quintessential series) Mongoose. Bastion is overpriced and overproduced, though I knuckled under and bought Arms & Armor. Atlas puts out pretty much horrible generic crap for d20 IMO except for Backdrops (generic but useful) and 3 Days To Kill. I can't find Pinnacle's products at any stores but probably wouldn't buy them anyway, despite my interest in Weird Wars. Chaosium doesn't have a clue how d20 works so far and shows nothing but contempt for d20 players anyway, so I don't hold out much hope there (Dragon Lord of Melnibone, anyone?). I don't know if any of the above helps you out or not, but I felt like venting, LOL. I did almost buy Codex of Erde, but decided I didn't need another setting and wasn't sure I liked Erde, anyway. It was hard to read because the type was so small...

BTW: Sorry if my post ruined your jokefest, I wasn't following the thread after the first page so didn't know about it.

 

[enrious]

Re: Response to page count and rant

Well, to answer this question direclty, I think it's because there are publishers out there who for better or worse tend to play with font sizes and other areas to appear to have a larger book. In some cases, I agree with you that hey, if it's worth it, it's worth it regardless of how many pages per dollar it works out to be, but page length is one indicator because if I see a 200 page book, I may think that there are going to be some useful sections. If it turns out that this could've been a 120 page book then there are some serious probelms that potential buyers need to know about.

I think this is the problem I have with CC - it's page count is artificially inflated.

You may not think that page count is a big deal, but it's used a marketing item in virtually every d20 product press release I've seen because it can be a helpful gauge as to how much material is in the product. This can be useful when comparing to rival products and it is important, otherwise publishers wouldn't include it in their press releases.

I like CC but that is in spite of the layout and wasted space. A cynical view would be that TLG used large fonts and wasted space to artifically increase the page count to make it appear to have more content, thus increasing the cost of the product for no value to the customer.

I hope that in the future you release books at a more natural page count - 144 with normal layout and fonts is far preferable to a 200 page book with layout and font such as that used in CC. I spend one extra dollar on stupid layout or features that give me no benefit, I feel cheated. I suspect every consumer feels the same way. It's somewhat like going to buy some gas for your car and finding out that you've been charged an extra dollar for "Dancing Bear Training and Domestication."

 

[Troll Lord]

Enrious,

Howdie ho! I'm off to my Wensday night game so I won't bore you too much with yammerings.

First off, the CC was all mine. Gary had nothing to do with formatting, nor for that matter did the rest of the Troll Lords as they were off doing this and that and not on full time. So, formatting complaints are all directed at me....personally!!

You are correct. Page count is a strange thing. It really shouldn't be a gauge for content, that's just silly but it is. Content has little to do with page count. Content stands or falls on its own.

The page count in the Canting Crew is the first time I ran into this problem. I could have opted to do everything in 10 font and subtitle the thing in 12 font, shrinking the book down to 90 odd pages. However, I immediately ran into a number of things. The multitude of subtitles and subsections in the Guild section made the text really hard to work through. Really what the CC offers in that second section is Guild structures, and spacing became rather important for the content.

The book is not filled with massive amounts of 'readable' text, (or with the font its very readable LOL) instructions and so forth (as you know, having read it). But is rather filled with outlined material that the gamer can use to build the skeleton for a setting that he can flesh out.

To flesh out all those thieves and so forth, you have but to pick up the Quintessential Rogue from Mongoose and you are airborne!

If I had really wanted to plump the book up I would have opted to make the Cant dictionary in 12 font. That would have added another 55 pages and drove the price up correspondingly.

Now, as I've said before, its the map that drove it above the 29.95 range, not the page count. Dropping the map wasn't an option as we were contractually obligated.

The next book in the series is set at 29.95 and has a page count of 90!

Just kidding!! LOL I don't have a completely accurate page on it as it needs some reworking. But is presently about 175 give or take a bundle. Of course it too won't be filled with readable text! Its a book of charts, tables, random generators, lists and so forth.

And yes, it must remain hard back to be usable.....hell and damnation I'm still using my old first edition DMG when we play oldschool....bought in 1885!

Steve

 

[Chosen23]

Well, Gary Gygax just doesn't seem to draw the crowds these days.
I like the book and because of last week's pitiful delivery it was on the front of my RPG stand with a "NEW!" sign on it, making a second week running where people pick it up, sigh, then leave.
I've priced the book down and it still won't go.

After ditching everything that has gone before in the history of D&D gaming, is the market ready for the return of the old fella?

I'd hope it was, looking at the amount of Gary Gygax-based books coming out, but I'm not sure the gaming audience really cares these days (I know I'd rather buy a book by the Alternity creators than Gygax).

Chosen 23

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, Gary Gygax just doesn't seem to draw the crowds these days.
I like the book and because of last week's pitiful delivery it was on the front of my RPG stand with a "NEW!" sign on it, making a second week running where people pick it up, sigh, then leave.
I've priced the book down and it still won't go.

After ditching everything that has gone before in the history of D&D gaming, is the market ready for the return of the old fella?

I'd hope it was, looking at the amount of Gary Gygax-based books coming out, but I'm not sure the gaming audience really cares these days (I know I'd rather buy a book by the Alternity creators than Gygax).

Chosen 23

To me, after some careful examination, I feel that people are judging the book too quickly. Now I'm not saying it's worth the money for everyone. The 16 pages for Legendary system, an equal amount of D20 material mind you, strongly indicate to me that unless the new stuff if fantastic beyond any thing Troll Lords done in the past, I will not be purchasing them.

I can understanding pricing from TL part based merely on the paper quality and maps, but hey, a Gold Tin cover with a hologram on it doesn't make it a good book.

Like others, I found the font sizes a little distracting. THere are so many different types of tables with no follow up information, I was really disappointed.

The whole $ thing bothered me. Even when in the appendix the use gold pieces for equipment (also with no gaming stats or description) the next appendix uses dollars for criminal punishment.

I'm debating if I should submit a review because I really thought that the one at http://www.dmshaven.freeservers.com/index.html was so sugar coated that I wanted to challenge him on almost every statement but then again, since he was the D20 mechanic on the book (which has what appear to be some questionable typos in some of the PrCs like the Bravo) I can't even take his review seriously.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Howdy!

Hey, JoeGKushner. Take another gander at the $ system--and sorrt if it got a bit messed up in going from ms. to finished product. 1 copper is $1, 1 silver is $10, and 1 gold is $500 using one-ounce coins. bu converting thinking to dollars, one can use contemporary pricing on most anything that would be available in a fantasy world that has a comprable product here--from bread to beer, shirts to ships. Just about anything. Of course hand-work required will affect things, and there are other factors too, but overall it should give immense aid to the GM who hates to look at proce charts. Everyday adventuring costs are so very easy to manage using the $ system. Come by sometime and I'll Gm for you--go shopping and watch how easy it is to give reasonable costs for most anything

Now as to you, Chosen23, I won't buy anything of yours either when it hits the stands, so there! ;p

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[JoeGKushner]

In future Gygaxian books, is it possible that we can have seperate D20/Lejendary books instead of one book where book games are present? Guardians of Order is doing this for their Super hero game setting for example, making seperate books for the different game systems. It's not like there were only one or two pages of game mechanics, each system received about the same, 16 pages which for me was a waste of 16 pages, and I'm sure that the Lejendary fans feel that the D20 stuff was a waste of 16 pages.