Capping Ability Scores

[airwalkrr]

Also you will be going down a path where every PC will likely end up with approx the same abiity scores by 20th level.

If they are capped then the player will place an ability score increase into a score that is below 18 with the end result being that the all start to lok the same.

Add into this the now limiting benefit of magic items (and spells) that increase ability scores - things get into an even more all characters have identical ability scores situation.

I suspect the first part might be true if PCs start with very high ability scores at the beginning. But if PCs begin with using an elite array, which is a fair approximation of an average set of D&D ability scores, then they max out one to 18 and they get 2 points to spend on another ability by level 20. Not really that drastic.

As for the last part of your post, enhancing your score via magic is still possible. A headband of intelligence could still get you to 24 Int theoretically and wish could still improve your score beyond 18.

 

[airwalkrr]

A lot of you are tkaing this to mean "no ability scores above 18", whereas it seems to me to mean "your every 4 level pluses can't make an ability score more than 18". That's a lot less radical than what most people are speaking in opposition to.

Yea, that's exactly what I meant. Thank you.

 

[airwalkrr]

When 3E first came out I got caught up in efforts to maintain most of the 'sacred cows' of AD&D. Capped stats being one of them. I limited stats to 23 +/- racial scores. The 23 number was calculated by assuming a player could roll an 18 at first level, and if he added all 5 of his level bonuses he could get that.

I have since scrapped most of those early day efforts. As others have pointed out. This is an entirely different Game...

I must say that ultimately, I am dissatisfied with 3e and long for many things of AD&D. Don't get me wrong. 3e had a bunch of great ideas. Feats for one was a fantastic way to improve character diversity. But as WotC usually does, I feel they overcompensated for what were typically considered "bad points" of AD&D. Such as the ability score caps. They did away with them completely and ratcheted the power level up extraordinarily high. I had people who had trouble calculating their attack bonus using a chart in AD&D. Why should I expect them to be able to more easily calculate their bonus with a Strength of 35, especially when they also have to worry themselves about sacred bonuses, morale bonuses, enhancement bonuses, circumstance modifiers, etc. Eventually, I hope to find a way to create a true hybrid of the systems for my own homegame use, but for now I've been tossing out tidbits onto the enworld boards to see what people think of the tweaks.

 

[genshou]

No way, no how. It'd never work with my house rules for level-based ability advancement. Besides, if 1/216 people have an 18 in an ability score, it's not the upper limit of human ability. 18 is nothing more than an arbitrary gameplay limit set to define the maximum amount a PC can have when first created. Scores above 18 can and should represent the extreme upper limits of human potential.

 

[airwalkrr]

No way, no how. It'd never work with my house rules for level-based ability advancement.

I was not asking if it would work with your house rules which I would have no way of knowing unless you posted a link to, and even then would probably not care to reference since it is outside the scope of my question. I am interested in how others think this would impact the core rules of the game.

 

[dante58701]

Capping ability scores is a horrid idea for all the reasons people noted above. Not to mention it doesnt make much sense. In real life you see freaks that defy the limits all the time. PCs are meant to be individuals who not only defy the limits, but also redefine them as a whole. Not to mention monsters and inhuman races would be sadly limited in a manner which defies logic. With all the things heroes and villians do...capping ability scores would be like telling conan that he cant lift a stone porticullus because it's far too heavy. Even though ideally he could do that and more. Heroes and vilians are exceptions to the norm. We should not define them as anything like the norm. Ability caps are for normies, not exceptional individuals. Not that normies need caps since they dont adventure to often. Plus..why place the limits of mundania upon that which is living in the enchanted. Magic itself would be a powerful enough reason to allow no cap on ability scores. In most worlds magic runs rampant and its affects can be felt throughout the world. Surely even hit points in excess of the normal racial base should be capped by your logic. People need to stop limiting themselves with ideas of unjustified balance factors. If capping ability scores were ever a cure all...then I must have missed something the last time I played a demigod dragon in 1st edition dungeons and dragons. Even in the old rules balance could be thrown out of wack with or without the caps on ability scores. Plus there is the old saying of...."There is always room for improvement." Not to mention the fact that we pitiful humans dont exactly have fireballs being flung up our arses.

 

[genshou]

Edit: Nevermind. You're clearly not in a good mood tonight and there are better times to press the issue.

 

[airwalkrr]

Capping ability scores is a horrid idea for all the reasons people noted above. Not to mention it doesnt make much sense. In real life you see freaks that defy the limits all the time. PCs are meant to be individuals who not only defy the limits, but also redefine them as a whole. Not to mention monsters and inhuman races would be sadly limited in a manner which defies logic. With all the things heroes and villians do...capping ability scores would be like telling conan that he cant lift a stone porticullus because it's far too heavy. Even though ideally he could do that and more. Heroes and vilians are exceptions to the norm. We should not define them as anything like the norm. Ability caps are for normies, not exceptional individuals. Not that normies need caps since they dont adventure to often. Plus..why place the limits of mundania upon that which is living in the enchanted. Magic itself would be a powerful enough reason to allow no cap on ability scores. In most worlds magic runs rampant and its affects can be felt throughout the world. Surely even hit points in excess of the normal racial base should be capped by your logic. People need to stop limiting themselves with ideas of unjustified balance factors. If capping ability scores were ever a cure all...then I must have missed something the last time I played a demigod dragon in 1st edition dungeons and dragons. Even in the old rules balance could be thrown out of wack with or without the caps on ability scores. Plus there is the old saying of...."There is always room for improvement." Not to mention the fact that we pitiful humans dont exactly have fireballs being flung up our arses.

First of all, do you think you could be a little bit more hostile?

Second of all, you and I clearly have different ideas about what the game is about. That is fine of course. We all have our different opinions and styles of play and as long as they work for us, so much the better. My personal opinion of D&D player characters is that they are not super heroes like the x-men, superman or the fantastic four with abilities that defy the limits of humanity. Instead, they are the pinnacle of human accomplishment who survive by their skills and wits instead of their innate god-like powers, like the more "human" super heroes such as batman or daredevil. (And I see magic as a skill within the context of the D&D game so the "magic" excuse doesn't work.)

Also, I never claimed this was a cure all. It is but one of a number of tweaks I have been mulling over in the attempt to adjust the game more to my and my groups' liking. If that isn't your cup of tea, please take your trolling elsewhere.

 

[airwalkrr]

So nice of you to take one sentence out of my post and completely ignore the rest. Come back to me after you've actually read my post and then we'll talk.

I didn't complete ignore the rest. I simply felt your initial statement was unrealistic and did not pertain to the topic at hand. The rest of your post was fairly well-put, and if I accepted the presupposition that there is no definite limit of potential (without magic) then I would be convinced by such a concise statement. But as I have said to dante58701, I believe it is a discrepansy between our beliefs of what the game is meant to represent. It is pretty irrelevant and practically off-topic for you to tell me that capping abilities at 18 is arbitrary if I believe that the limit of 18 is supposed to represent a maximum potential. You clearly do not. I have no problem with the fact that you and I disagree and I am not trying to convince you otherwise. But it does nothing to aid the discussion of the merits of the system and how it functions mechanically, which is my chief interest.

 

[genshou]

I've edited my post and would be happy if you did the same. We can hopefully continue discussion tomorrow when neither of us has as strong of a reason to feel defensive about anything.