Careful Attack/Sure Strike: A mathematical analysis

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I don't see how making Sure Strike/Careful Attack eligible for basic attacks would make any of that more powerful. SS/CA do less damage than a basic attack and only have a slight hit chance advantage.

Seems innocuous in this case for sure, but I think that's a slippery slope to start wandering down.

 

[Zurai]

Seems innocuous in this case for sure, but I think that's a slippery slope to start wandering down.

How so? There are already two at-will attacks that substitute for basic attacks. I'm absolutely certain we'll see some melee basic attack at-wills eventually.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Maybe SS/CA should target Reflex instead?

Increasing the chance to hit (which this suggestion does) doesn't change the fact that Twin Strike and Careful Attack have damage dealing as their sole effect. There are several posts in this thread outlining the problem with this. As for Sure Strike? It's still similar to Reaping Strike... let me run that scenario through my evaluator before making a firm comment.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

How so? There are already two at-will attacks that substitute for basic attacks. I'm absolutely certain we'll see some melee basic attack at-wills eventually.

Really? Which ones? I've missed that. I've seen the Swordmaster Steel Grace path feature which allows substituting Reaping Strike or Containing Strike for a basic attack. If there are already at-wills like that, I'll definitely rethink my position.

 

[Zurai]

Really? Which ones? I've missed that. I've seen the Swordmaster Steel Grace path feature which allows substituting Reaping Strike or Containing Strike for a basic attack. If there are already at-wills like that, I'll definitely rethink my position.

Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile both replace the ranged basic attack for their respective classes.

 

[Stalker0]

For those wanting to tweak CS, one way to do so is to jack up the damage without touching the attack rate.

Basically Twin Strike becomes your "accurate" shot, capable of consistent damage. Careful Shot becomes like a sniper shot, an attack that if it hits, does a big amount of damage.

The most common suggestion I've seen as far as this goes is that Careful has a regular attack, and deals 1[W] + dex + wisdom mod.

However, in general I do think the best way to fix the power is to scrap it and start over.

 

[keterys]

The reason I suggested just making Sure Strike a basic attack is so that it can be used with things like opportunity attacks, so the fighter is more likely to prevent movement.

It's also just better for killing minions.

And I suppose it works with bracers of mighty striking.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree with Mengu (and others): making Careful Attack better at damage doesn't improve the power. You still have the problem of Careful Attack and Twin Strike having the exact same effect: they are powers that are effectively a Basic Attack, but do more damage. Careful Attack has to differentiate itself by having a different effect then straight damage.

You've lost sight of the forest for the trees. They really do not do the same thing. Twin Strike can be used to hit two different creatures. Careful Attack cannot. This is a significant difference.

If you increase the attack bonus of Careful Attack to be slightly better than Twin Strike, that is OK (and still different) because it's only good against one foe instead of two.

So for example if you face two low-AC minions, twin strike will be better because you could kill both.

However, if you are facing one tougher foe with a high AC, you will want to use Careful Attack instead for the attack bonus (if you increase the attack bonus of Careful Attack of course).

The two powers really do achieve different things...you just have to look at what they actually do, rather than just your linear calculation for a particular situation.

 

[keterys]

In case you don't know, Careful Attack _used to_ give a +4 bonus to attack. Before that it let you roll the dice twice and take the better. I'm not sure if you got (Str/Dex) to damage at any point, but I'd not be surprised.

I'm guessing, though I don't know, that twin strike was melee only and they expanded it to ranged as well and dropped the 'roll twice' version of careful.

Either way, they changed it not long before printing and didn't quite get it right...

 

[Reaper Steve]

I posted this in the suggested errata thread, but thought to copy it here with the main discussion:

I think Twin Strike is the real culprit here. I think it is just too good to be an at-will.
Maybe it would be better if it only gave one attack roll, but then did primary [W] + secondary [W]. If you hit, both weapons hit. If you miss, both miss.
Or maybe a hit with the primary attack would generate a secondary attack.
I laos think it should be melee only.

However, because Twin Strike is an at-will, people compare careful attack and sure strike to it. As it stands, there is no reason to use Careful attack in place of Twin Strike. But I contend that this is a problem with TTwin Strike, not Careful attack.

For sake of discussion, pretend Twin Strike didn't exist. Now sure strike and careful attack have a place: they offer an increased chance to hit at the expense of (+mod) damage. Yeah, someone says, but the average damage per round is lower than that of a basic attack. True, but I think that is a flawed argument. The point of careful attack and sure strike is to increase the chance to hit. Sometimes you really need to hit the target, even if it means potentially less damage.