Cascade effect of rule changes

[AllisterH]

In the "why aren't you switching" thread, one argument was the "I thought Y was a problem but why are they changing X when that wasn't a problem" and I wonder how much of this is because of Mearls et al looking at the underlying problem of Y?

Example: Magic items.

Few people I've seen like them. From the anti-4E side to the pro-4E side, many people don't like the current Big six system for non-spellcasters.

However, in fixing this, Mearls et al might have had to play around with the spellcasting system itself. What I mean is, if you get rid of the Big six and make it the Big 3, you have to get rid of the spells themselves which affects not only the effectiveness of the non-spellcasters but also the spellcasters (if there's no Cat Grace for rogues to get higher Dex and AC, you can't have spells that duplicate or give the mage better AC than what a casting of Cat's grace would've done for the rogue).

Which means you got to play around with the spellcasting system so that it itself is balanced.

So how many 3E "problems" would have a cascade effect on the system?

 

[kennew142]

I'm pretty sure this is a major component of the new system. A lot of things needed changing, and in changing them other things had to change in order to maintain balance.

I also think that some of the designers just wanted to do things differently. We've already been told that the 3e designers had taken a very conservative approach to changing the system. They kept a lot of rules and sub-systems because they were afraid of slaughtering too many sacred cows in one hit.

Finally, there are some things that have received a lot of negative feedback from players. Two of them are the spell casting system (so called Vancian magic) and the 15 minute adventuring day.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

IMHO.... all of them.
Otherwise the 'problems' would have been readily HR'd out of the game.

3e was great because the mechanics fit neatly into a tightly functioning system, quite unlike the patchwork quilts of earlier versions where there were multiple mini-games stuck together.

3e was horrible because the mechanics fit too tightly together and altering one piece would trigger fatal errors elsewhere.


One of the reasons for this was that the underpinning assumptions were not known outside of WoTC. Any HR had the potential to completely off balance the game. And some 'official rules' ran into the same problem.

One thing that I am looking forward to in 4e is that the underpinning assumptions are defined, making it easier to tweak the system without unbalancing. An example of this is the reported ability to replace magic items with a straight level based bonus.

 

[Irda Ranger]

In the "why aren't you switching" thread, one argument was the "I thought Y was a problem but why are they changing X when that wasn't a problem" and I wonder how much of this is because of Mearls et al looking at the underlying problem of Y?

IMHO.... all of them. Otherwise the 'problems' would have been readily HR'd out of the game.

I think this is right. The problems 4E is trying to tackle are not surface issues like balancing Polymorph or whether the Ranger got the shaft. 3E has "systemic" problems; problems with the very core of the system. These manifest if a lot of different ways and often effect parts of the game you wouldn't expect if you don't follow all the repercussions very closely.

3e was great because the mechanics fit neatly into a tightly functioning system, quite unlike the patchwork quilts of earlier versions where there were multiple mini-games stuck together.

3e was horrible because the mechanics fit too tightly together and altering one piece would trigger fatal errors elsewhere.

This is also an astute comment, but I think 4E will have the same problem. No matter how much guidance is offered, you can't avoid the problem of cascading rule-changes as long as you have an integrated rule set. Dis THAC0 all you want, but at least you could replace THAC0 with something more sensible without screwing up the saving throw tables (or vice versa). All those mini-games did allow for a lot of freedom for house rules (even if that freedom was often used to make bad house rules). Maybe more explicit mini-games is a better way to go sometimes (not that I expect 4E to do this).

 

[mach1.9pants]

Sorry, what is the 'big six system'? Is that buffs for the abilities?
Man this forum so needs a list of acronyms and phrases, I get real confused by MMO ones!

 

[Jack99]

Sorry, what is the 'big six system'? Is that buffs for the abilities?
Man this forum so needs a list of acronyms and phrases, I get real confused by MMO ones!

Actually "the big six" has nothing to do with MMO's, and everything to do with dnd 3.5. It's a reference to the necessity of 6 types of items in DND - Stat buffs, magical weapons, magical armor, resistance modifiers, and hmm 2 other that I seem to have forgotten atm.

Edit: ah yeah, natural armor necklace and ring of protection were the last two

 

[kennew142]

Actually "the big six" has nothing to do with MMO's, and everything to do with dnd 3.5. It's a reference to the necessity of 6 types of items in DND - Stat buffs, magical weapons, magical armor, resistance modifiers, and hmm 2 other that I seem to have forgotten atm.

I loose track of what the other two are as well.

What I want to know is: if I don't get (or like) something in the new edition, am I supposed to blame it on video games, anime or MMOs? I keep forgetting.

 

[Simon Marks]

Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armour.

The Big 6

 

[Aenghus]

We are told the stat-boosting items have been removed in 4e, and presumably this means the stat booster spells have also been removed.

I expect buff spells in 4e to be simpler boosts to directly-used stats - attack, damage, saves etc, avoiding boosts to stats that would require a cascade to derived values e.g. Strength.

I expect any polymorph spells when they come out will be single-form only, with all stats stated in the spell. I can understand the delay in handling this and summoning, as they work out a balanced and friendly way to implement these in 4e.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

What I want to know is: if I don't get (or like) something in the new edition, am I supposed to blame it on video games, anime or MMOs? I keep forgetting.

Dude, you are so out of it. We're blaming collectible miniatures this week. I'm going to have to take away your blaming rights for at least 10 days, I think.