Case Study: Wraithstrike

[Hypersmurf]

So that rules out wands, staves, scrolls, and rings of spell storing.

While the item description for wands, staves, and the ring of spell storing imposes a minimum, the item description for scrolls doesn't.

In fact, scrolls are the first example used in the DMG text of "the casting time of the spell is the activation time of the item".

A wand of Wraithstrike would take a standard action to activate; a scroll of Wraithstrike would take a swift action.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

A wand of Wraithstrike would take a standard action to activate; a scroll of Wraithstrike would take a swift action.

"Speed reading" indeed.

While I'm sure you're correct, this is kinda counter-intuitive.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's because scrolls are not the only kind of spell completion items; they're the only version present in any great numbers (and possibly at all) in the core rules, but that doesn't prevent someone from using the magic item creation rules to create a "spell completion rune."

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's because scrolls are not the only kind of spell completion items...

If you're referring to my noting them as the first example... I'm not talking about the Spell Completion text. I'm talking about the general rules for magic items. Where the SRD says "regardless of the type of magic item", the DMG says something like "such as a scroll, wand, or pair of boots".

The casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, such as a scroll.

What's the time required to activate Wraithstrike from a scroll? The casting time of the spell... unless the item description specifically states otherwise. And the item description for scrolls doesn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

15th level (first time you can get persistent wraithstrike) wizard. Draconic polymorph into war troll (MM3, 31+8 Str). +1 skillful greatsword (CArc) made +3 with greater magic weapon. +4 enhancement to Str item. Max Power Attack (+11 BAB).

Each hit does 3d6 + 24 (Str) +22 (Power Attack) + 3 enhancement = 3d6 + 49 damage.

That's an automatic "Death from Massive Damage" save after all hits. Not my idea of "weak damage"... :\

Umm, sorry, but the same wizard can cast a single empowered sorching ray, a 2nd level spell cast in a 4th level slot, for 84 points of damage. Let me repeat...a 4TH LEVEL SLOT for a 15th level caster. Heck, as an 8th level slot they can empower AND maximize it for ungodly amounts of damage, all as a touch attack. Any save or die spell (such as even the lowly tasha's hideous laughter) could do it better.

Tell me again how this is a great idea to be trying to hit people with your sword using a high level spell to polymorph and then cast yet another spell to hit someone with a weapon that had yet another spell cast on it plus you had to borrow or buy a magic item that is otherwise useless to you plus you had to take a feat that is otherwise useless to you and you had to have prerequisites for that feat that are sub-optimal as well.

Seriously...if you are going to try and use this as a Gish example, it was a horrible example. With normal out of the box players handbook spells you can be doing SO much more damage, at range, as a touch attack, without any magic items, suboptimal stats, or additional spells cast on you to prepare for it, than that example. I'm sure someone can come up with a decent example to demonstrate an extremely limited but effective sub-tactic to make wraithstrike broken (like you can do with most spells), but that was not the example.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you're referring to my noting them as the first example...

Not really.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not really.

So what's the "That" in "That's because"? In the absence of a quote, your pronouns got fuzzy...

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"While I'm sure you're correct, this is kinda counter-intuitive."

Which seemed to be in response to your response to ...

"Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

... It is the post immediately before mine ...

 

[Iku Rex]

Umm, sorry, but the same wizard can cast a single empowered sorching ray, a 2nd level spell cast in a 4th level slot, for 84 points of damage. Let me repeat...a 4TH LEVEL SLOT for a 15th level caster. Heck, as an 8th level slot they can empower AND maximize it for ungodly amounts of damage, all as a touch attack. Any save or die spell (such as even the lowly tasha's hideous laughter) could do it better.

That's still far less damage than the character in my simple example will do on a single full attack. Throughout the battle. With no need to worry about SR or fire immunity.

Furthermore I fail to see how the option to lay down the smack with spells in addition to dominating melee is a downside. (!) If you want to claim that a wizard is useless in melee, compare him with other melee characters.

(And scorching ray gives you a maximum of three rays, not four. +1 ray at level 7, +2 rays at level 11.)

Tell me again how this is a great idea to be trying to hit people with your sword using a high level spell to polymorph and then cast yet another spell to hit someone with a weapon that had yet another spell cast on it plus you had to borrow or buy a magic item that is otherwise useless to you plus you had to take a feat that is otherwise useless to you and you had to have prerequisites for that feat that are sub-optimal as well.

Where do I begin?

The sword is not "otherwise useless". Remove wraithstrike and a well built melee wizard can still beat the crap out of just about any fighter-type. If it was "otherwise useless", that's beside the point since a persistent wraithstrike can be in effect 24/7.

Power Attack is not "otherwise useless " at all - it's an excellent feat, especially for a character with lower BAB and a (potentially) high attack bonus.

Your argument seems to boil down to:

1. Wizards are useless in melee, even with wraithstrike.
2. Because of [1], no wizard will make an effort to be good at melee.
3. Because of [2], go to [1].

Spot the flaw...

Seriously...if you are going to try and use this as a Gish example, it was a horrible example. With normal out of the box players handbook spells you can be doing SO much more damage, at range, as a touch attack, without any magic items, suboptimal stats, or additional spells cast on you to prepare for it, than that example. I'm sure someone can come up with a decent example to demonstrate an extremely limited but effective sub-tactic to make wraithstrike broken (like you can do with most spells), but that was not the example.

A 15th level wizard can easily do 12d6 + 196 damage every round (with haste effect activated) with the basic setup I posted. Remind me - which "out of the box players handbook spell" can do that for me?

 

[Terraism]

A 15th level wizard can easily do 12d6 + 196 damage every round (with haste effect activated) with the basic setup I posted. Remind me - which "of the box players handbook spell" can do that for me?

I'm curious - earlier, you mention this wizard has a +11 BAB, and now, unless I'm missing something, that he's getting four attacks per round. How exactly is a wizard getting a +11 BAB, especially at 15th level?